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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 11:51:26 GMT
I think Carlton is joking. I agree with Ian Kershaw there is no evidence, but the thread is imagining what would have happened if it had been true. Hitler's stay in Vienna left him with a hatred of Jews and non-Germans, would therefore a stay in Liverpool have left him with a hatred of Irish people and scousers? I didn't read the whole thread, I must confess - I haven't been around much over the last few days. Interesting idea. Hitler did meet his half-Irish nephew William, who lived in Germany for a while after 1933, and tried to profit from his uncle's rise to power. William later left Germany, and moved to attempting to blackmail him instead. Many fabricated stories which regularly resurface in relation to Adolf Hitler actually originated with William and his mother Bridget. It would probably have been bad news for the Irish if Hitler had based his view of them on these two. Actually, the Nazis don't seem to have taken a very close interest in Ireland. In terms of Nazi racial theory (which, of course, was very much a matter of whatever the Nazis found convenient at any given moment), the Irish were a "mixture of Nordic and Celtic elements", which ought to have placed them relatively high in the European hierarchy. They made half-hearted attempts to exploit Irish nationalist resentment of Britain, but clearly did not see this as a key objective. Both of Ireland's major political parties were, to some degree, influenced by Fascism, and Fine Gael was briefly led by the ridiculous General Eoin O'Duffy. Link is to a photo in the Irish Examiner archive showing Mrs E O'Neill taking the salute in Kinsale in December 1933. The view is to the south along The Mall, toward my grand uncle's house on Compass Hill. Indeed, and of course everyone remembers the moment when Dev gave his condolences to the German Embassy on hearing that Adolf was dead, a respect that I don't think any other country at the time repeated.
Given Hitler's time in Vienna as a down-and-out, and where his transformation into a raving anti-Semite seems to have occurred (my reading of Ian Kershaw's books), I think the sight and intercourse with the Irish would have played on his irrational instincts as much as Jewish people did in Vienna. I am not sure about the Irish being a "mixture of Nordic and Celtic elements", I think the evidence such as it is suggest they had descent from Iberian populations. Wherever the Irish were on the Nazi pecking order that didn't stop him planning the invasion of the neutral republic.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 11:55:54 GMT
It was a joke. Yes, I know about Gladstone (I have read a lot of Irish history). Whether he spoke a more generic Lancastrian influenced by his education or had a more distinct "Liverpudlian" accent is up for debate, but the Liverpudlian back then did not sound like modern scouse, which developed in the second half of the 19th century (influenced by Welsh and Irish immigrants). So Gladstone didn't speak scouse. Scouse is derived from lobscouse, which is an English mispronunciation of the Scandinavian dish labskovs/lapskojs, so there is a Nordic connection. I'm from Merseyside Odo. That might make the last sentence superfluous (though it wasn't directed at you in particular), but doesn't change the fact that Gladstone didn't speak scouse. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 11:56:49 GMT
So did President Douglas Hyde, though this may have been on De Valera's advice. Yes, the Germans were planning to occupy Ireland. EDIT: Perhaps "had plans" would be more accurate.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 20, 2016 12:03:02 GMT
So, it is true, he did go there then? The story is based entirely on the memoirs of Hitler's sister-in-law Bridget. These contain numerous discrepancies, and the suspicion has been voiced that that they were drafted during the 1930s to cash in on Hitler's notoriety. Historian Ian Kershaw has described them as a work of fiction. I know. My comment was sarcasm at the expense of Liverpool. |
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Khunanup
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Post by Khunanup on Nov 20, 2016 12:08:48 GMT
That might make the last sentence superfluous (though it wasn't directed at you in particular), but doesn't change the fact that Gladstone didn't speak scouse. With the very best will in the world, perhaps telling your grandmother to suck eggs is probably not the best idea on this forum. I'm sure you'd be slightly peeved if someone on here tried to explain to you aspects of Danish culture that is second nature to you. |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 20, 2016 12:13:49 GMT
That might make the last sentence superfluous (though it wasn't directed at you in particular), but doesn't change the fact that Gladstone didn't speak scouse. With the very best will in the world, perhaps telling your grandmother to suck eggs is probably not the best idea on this forum. I'm sure you'd be slightly peeved if someone on here tried to explain to you aspects of Danish culture that is second nature to you. That is in no way valid. Why would your proximity to present day Liverpool make you any better placed to know the accent of Gladstone than Odo. Her explanation seems better than your hoity toity bluster. You owe her an apology. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 12:19:32 GMT
That might make the last sentence superfluous (though it wasn't directed at you in particular), but doesn't change the fact that Gladstone didn't speak scouse. With the very best will in the world, perhaps telling your grandmother to suck eggs is probably not the best idea on this forum. I'm sure you'd be slightly peeved if someone on here tried to explain to you aspects of Danish culture that is second nature to you. Well, I do not understand why you even brought up Gladstone, Firstly, I made a quick one-liner, whether it was funny or not there was no reason to treat it as a serious statement. Secondly, scouse did not exist when Gladstone was a boy/youth and developed his basic speech pattern, so he isn't relevant. Thirdly, you are not necessarily knowledgable about the historical development of language in the area you live in. Most people aren't. And since you brought up Gladstone in this context I assumed you weren't. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 12:20:15 GMT
Interesting I didn't know Hyde had. I think the British public were given the idea it was only Dev because Churchill disliked him so much and because the Irish hadn't allowed them to use Irish ports during the Battle of the Atlantic.
I wonder which side the IRA would have taken if the Germans had invaded?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 12:28:05 GMT
I am not sure about the Irish being a "mixture of Nordic and Celtic elements", I think the evidence such as it is suggest they had descent from Iberian populations.
Nowadays, "celtic" tends to be used without the racial connotations assumed in the past, to describe a range of tendencies in material culture across wide swathes of Europe in the Late Pre-Roman Iron Age. The Irish are descended from a series of waves of migration from the Mesolithic onward. Some awareness of this is suggested by their own origin myths. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 12:31:09 GMT
I am not sure about the Irish being a "mixture of Nordic and Celtic elements", I think the evidence such as it is suggest they had descent from Iberian populations.
Nowadays, "celtic" tends to be used without the racial connotations assumed in the past, to describe a range of tendencies in material culture in the Late Pre-Roman Iron Age. The Irish are descended from a series of waves of migration from the Mesolithic onward. Exactly! totally agree. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 12:33:06 GMT
Interesting I didn't know Hyde had. I think the British public were given the idea it was only Dev because Churchill disliked him so much and because the Irish hadn't allowed them to use Irish ports during the Battle of the Atlantic.
I wonder which side the IRA would have taken if the Germans had invaded?
I've just discovered a Wikipedia article about "Operation Green", the German plan to occupy Ireland, which looks plausible. I was aware it existed, but had never seen any details. |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Nov 20, 2016 12:36:29 GMT
The story is based entirely on the memoirs of Hitler's sister-in-law Bridget. These contain numerous discrepancies, and the suspicion has been voiced that that they were drafted during the 1930s to cash in on Hitler's notoriety. Historian Ian Kershaw has described them as a work of fiction. I think Carlton is joking. I agree with Ian Kershaw there is no evidence, but the thread is imagining what would have happened if it had been true. Hitler's stay in Vienna left him with a hatred of Jews and non-Germans, would therefore a stay in Liverpool have left him with a hatred of Irish people and scousers? Well it does on everybody else so why not on him? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 12:36:44 GMT
With the very best will in the world, perhaps telling your grandmother to suck eggs is probably not the best idea on this forum. I'm sure you'd be slightly peeved if someone on here tried to explain to you aspects of Danish culture that is second nature to you. That is in no way valid. Why would your proximity to present day Liverpool make you any better placed to know the accent of Gladstone than Odo. Her explanation seems better than your hoity toity bluster. You owe her an apology. I think local languages should be for local people...
it was a legitimate counterpoint, respectfully made. No need I think for an apology.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2016 12:40:45 GMT
Interesting I didn't know Hyde had. I think the British public were given the idea it was only Dev because Churchill disliked him so much and because the Irish hadn't allowed them to use Irish ports during the Battle of the Atlantic.
I wonder which side the IRA would have taken if the Germans had invaded?
I've just discovered a Wikipedia article about "Operation Green", the German plan to occupy Ireland, which looks plausible. I was aware it existed, but had never seen any details. Interesting. Operation Green? the name is ironic or coincidence, though I guess they were going for the sympathy vote. If they had called it Operation Orange......  |
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Post by finsobruce on Nov 20, 2016 18:22:05 GMT
I think Gerard Houllier the ex-Liverpool manager picked up a bit of an accent during his short time at the club, so it is quite possible that Adolf had he stayed a year or two could have mastered some basic scouse. Certainly a conversation with Chamberlain during the Munich negotiations over Czechoslovakia, could have been a bit more lively in a Scouse-German accent. Jan Molby's accent was fantastic! "He's Fat, He's Round His car is in the pound, Jan Molby, Jan Molby" |
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Post by mrhell on Nov 20, 2016 19:54:38 GMT
Erm, and I write this in Old Swan in Liverpool where I'm visiting this weekend, there is that little known orator William Gladstone who hails from this fair city. I'm not sure if you know of him in Denmark. Oh and I did pop by his birthplace while I was at it, hadn't done that for a while when I arrived on Friday evening. I remember watching an interview with George Melly who explained the lack of a scouse accent was because a being middle class. A bit like my lack of a geordie accent. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Nov 20, 2016 21:11:03 GMT
I think he'd have had a bigger moustache. Of course he did at first  ..but perhaps he'd have gone for the perm as well |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Nov 20, 2016 21:16:13 GMT
Of course he did at first ..but perhaps he'd have gone for the perm as well And tracky bottoms. Tucked into jackboots. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 20, 2016 22:26:18 GMT
I think Gerard Houllier the ex-Liverpool manager picked up a bit of an accent during his short time at the club, so it is quite possible that Adolf had he stayed a year or two could have mastered some basic scouse. Certainly a conversation with Chamberlain during the Munich negotiations over Czechoslovakia, could have been a bit more lively in a Scouse-German accent. Jan Molby's accent was fantastic! I thought of him right away. Its actually unusual for someone to pick up the accent - I've lived here for 23 years and haven't picked it up at all. Did you know that actors have to practice their Scouse by saying 'purple chicken' ? I love the way they say 'murder' - which sounds like 'meerdah' |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2016 1:08:52 GMT
I've written a number of hoax articles out of boredom. One was about Hitler's stay in Szczecin, Poland. The original isn't around, but it got passed around some crackpot neo-Nazi sites, and translated into a number of languages. Nothing ever leaves the internet: codoh.com/library/document/3096/ |
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