Ask the Forum thread- psephology

[peterl]

Aug 29, 2024 22:15:19 GMT uthacalthing said:

Aug 29, 2024 21:29:18 GMT peterl said:

 MPs receiving high salaries is part of why they are so out of touch with most of the population.

MPs do not have high salaries. The returning officer who shook their hand is probably paid more, their GP is almost certainly paid more  and they will have half a dozen Hgh School Heads who are paid more. Then even more consitituents than all combined in the private sector who earn more. 

Average salary according to latest government statistics is £35,880 per year. Current salary of an MP is £91,346. That's over two and a half times the average. Are there jobs that pay more? Sure. But at over double what a person on average pay receives, its fair to call that high.

[uthacalthing]

Do you think that MPs should be paid less than a train driver, a primary school head, a junior Doctor, a supermarket manager?

Do you expect anyone competent to be an MP to stand?

[peterl]

Aug 29, 2024 22:35:09 GMT uthacalthing said:

Do you think that MPs should be paid less than a train driver, a primary school head, a junior Doctor, a supermarket manager?

Do you expect anyone competent to be an MP to stand?

Well let's see...

Train drivers average salary is £48,500. www.reed.com/articles/train-driver-salary-benefits

Junior doctors start at £32,300 first year out of medical school, the high point for a "speciality registrar" is £63,100, which seems to be the high end of what can be considered a junior doctor, though others may be more knowledgeable about the ranks of the medical profession www.bma.org.uk/media/sfngdzmc/pay-and-conditions-circular-md-4-2023-final_0.pdf (page 5)

A headteacher in England earns between £53,400 and £62,300. www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-pay-scales-for-eligible-teaching-and-education-jobs/national-pay-scales-for-eligible-teaching-and-education-leadership-occupation-codes

Average pay of a supermarket manager is £47,000 www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/supermarket-manager-salary-SRCH_KO0,19.htm

(all figures rounded to nearest £100 for ease of comparison).

So the highest paid of these positions would still only be on about two-thirds of what an MP receives.

To continue the comparison, to earn as much as an MP, an army officer would have to reach the rank of Lt Colonel, a police officer would have to reach Chief Superintendent, a local government employee would probably have to be a service director, all of these roles entailing actual responsibility for managing staff and resources. If paid based on how much responsibility they have, an MP would probably be on somewhere around £40,000.

[J.G.Harston]

Aug 29, 2024 22:28:01 GMT peterl said:

Aug 29, 2024 22:15:19 GMT uthacalthing said:

MPs do not have high salaries. The returning officer who shook their hand is probably paid more, their GP is almost certainly paid more  and they will have half a dozen Hgh School Heads who are paid more. Then even more consitituents than all combined in the private sector who earn more. 

Average salary according to latest government statistics is £35,880 per year. Current salary of an MP is £91,346. That's over two and a half times the average. Are there jobs that pay more? Sure. But at over double what a person on average pay receives, its fair to call that high.

But you should be comparing with other jobs in public administration, not the entirety of all jobs. The chief executive of a small local council is likely to be on around 150k.

[msc]

Aug 30, 2024 7:22:09 GMT J.G.Harston said:

Aug 29, 2024 22:28:01 GMT peterl said:

Average salary according to latest government statistics is £35,880 per year. Current salary of an MP is £91,346. That's over two and a half times the average. Are there jobs that pay more? Sure. But at over double what a person on average pay receives, its fair to call that high.

But you should be comparing with other jobs in public administration, not the entirety of all jobs. The chief executive of a small local council is likely to be on around 150k.

Apparently there are council folk in Glasgow (which is struggling to pay for anything) with salaries thrice the amounts of the local MPs. Which is nuts.

[The Bishop]

"MPs should be paid a pittance" really is the worst sort of fake populism. What it would ACTUALLY lead to is politics again becoming the plaything of the rich.

(and to anyone who replies "isn't that what we have now", you ain't seen nothing yet)

[polupolu]

Aug 30, 2024 9:34:35 GMT The Bishop said:

"MPs should be paid a pittance" really is the worst sort of fake populism. What it would ACTUALLY lead to is politics again becoming the plaything of the rich.

(and to anyone who replies "isn't that what we have now", you ain't seen nothing yet)

Traditionally, MPs were assumed to be independently wealthy and to not need a salary. The Chartists were the first to press for paying MPs a salary in 1838.  The change was only made in 1911 (Parliament had voted down the idea several times before that).

[Sibboleth]

Aug 30, 2024 9:34:35 GMT The Bishop said:

"MPs should be paid a pittance" really is the worst sort of fake populism. What it would ACTUALLY lead to is politics again becoming the plaything of the rich.

(and to anyone who replies "isn't that what we have now", you ain't seen nothing yet)

There's a fascinating Commons debate on the subject from 1979 here.

[swanarcadian]

What type of PR does Make Votes Matter support, or are they open minded about it?

[john07]

The other issue with MPs is that their tenure is often insecure and at the mercy of boundary changes, deselection, and political swing.

It is not a normal job.

This neo-Militant crap about earning the average wage needs to be dispatched. Otherwise the commons will be stuffed with wealthy Tories and Dave Nellist types.

[uthacalthing]

Rather than suits with a 2:2 in Politics and International Relations from a shit university who have no social media footprint, no original thoughts and no job history other than carrying the bags of an MP or devolved equivalent.

[johnloony]

Aug 30, 2024 17:09:32 GMT swanarcadian said:

What type of PR does Make Votes Matter support, or are they open minded about it?

It seems that they are open-minded about it in the sense that they think a “Citizens’ Assembly” should do a load of consultations to decide which system

makevotesmatter.org.uk/good-systems-agreement/

[The Bishop]

Aug 30, 2024 17:37:00 GMT uthacalthing said:

Rather than suits with a 2:2 in Politics and International Relations from a shit university who have no social media footprint, no original thoughts and no job history other than carrying the bags of an MP or devolved equivalent.

Maybe you could tot up how many of our recently elected MPs fit into this category. They might not be quite as numerous as you think.

[gwynthegriff]

Aug 30, 2024 4:55:31 GMT peterl said:

Aug 29, 2024 22:35:09 GMT uthacalthing said:

Do you think that MPs should be paid less than a train driver, a primary school head, a junior Doctor, a supermarket manager?

Do you expect anyone competent to be an MP to stand?

Well let's see...

Train drivers average salary is £48,500. www.reed.com/articles/train-driver-salary-benefits

Junior doctors start at £32,300 first year out of medical school, the high point for a "speciality registrar" is £63,100, which seems to be the high end of what can be considered a junior doctor, though others may be more knowledgeable about the ranks of the medical profession www.bma.org.uk/media/sfngdzmc/pay-and-conditions-circular-md-4-2023-final_0.pdf (page 5)

A headteacher in England earns between £53,400 and £62,300. www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-pay-scales-for-eligible-teaching-and-education-jobs/national-pay-scales-for-eligible-teaching-and-education-leadership-occupation-codes

Average pay of a supermarket manager is £47,000 www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/supermarket-manager-salary-SRCH_KO0,19.htm

(all figures rounded to nearest £100 for ease of comparison).

So the highest paid of these positions would still only be on about two-thirds of what an MP receives.

To continue the comparison, to earn as much as an MP, an army officer would have to reach the rank of Lt Colonel, a police officer would have to reach Chief Superintendent, a local government employee would probably have to be a service director, all of these roles entailing actual responsibility for managing staff and resources. If paid based on how much responsibility they have, an MP would probably be on somewhere around £40,000.

You're missing an important point - security of tenure.

[uthacalthing]

Aug 31, 2024 11:18:20 GMT The Bishop said:

Aug 30, 2024 17:37:00 GMT uthacalthing said:

Rather than suits with a 2:2 in Politics and International Relations from a shit university who have no social media footprint, no original thoughts and no job history other than carrying the bags of an MP or devolved equivalent.

Maybe you could tot up how many of our recently elected MPs fit into this category. They might not be quite as numerous as you think.

You may well be correct, one of the benefits of a landslide. Oh, and Starmer's peoples rigid grip on selections, which by passed time served SpAds in favour of better candidates. 

[iang]

More of our MPs seem older than usual, many of them having been councillors but also having done "real jobs", and I had the impression that was true of a number of Labour MPs too

[carolus]

Inspired by the large number (20) byelections on 10 October:

1) Does anyone know what the record is for byelections on a day that is in some sense "normal"? e.g. not LE or GE Day, not immediately after covid, probably discounting days where postponed polls have been held after LE day. I can't imagine that 20 is the record, and if nothing else the number of councillors has been shrinking steadily.

2) Does anyone know what the record is for simultaneous byelections in a single authority? e.g. there are three in Ealing on 10 October, which surely can't be near the record!

[johnloony]

Sept 7, 2024 11:07:56 GMT carolus said:

Inspired by the large number (20) byelections on 10 October:

1) Does anyone know what the record is for byelections on a day that is in some sense "normal"? e.g. not LE or GE Day, not immediately after covid, probably discounting days where postponed polls have been held after LE day. I can't imagine that 20 is the record, and if nothing else the number of councillors has been shrinking steadily.

2) Does anyone know what the record is for simultaneous byelections in a single authority? e.g. there are three in Ealing on 10 October, which surely can't be near the record!

There were 5 in Croydon on one day in 2021, but that was on the same day as the GLA elections. But none of the vacancies had accumulated over several months due to COVID, and all five were resignations very close to the by-election date.

[hullenedge]

Sept 7, 2024 11:07:56 GMT carolus said:

Inspired by the large number (20) byelections on 10 October:

1) Does anyone know what the record is for byelections on a day that is in some sense "normal"? e.g. not LE or GE Day, not immediately after covid, probably discounting days where postponed polls have been held after LE day. I can't imagine that 20 is the record, and if nothing else the number of councillors has been shrinking steadily.

2) Does anyone know what the record is for simultaneous byelections in a single authority? e.g. there are three in Ealing on 10 October, which surely can't be near the record!

Point 2 - There was the Clay Cross whole council by-election in 1974 (11 seats) but that can be topped by the 12 vacancies at Torbay on 29th June 1967 (vacancies caused by councillors raised to the aldermanic bench). It would not be a surprise if that 12 is exceeded for the 'olden days'. More recent times Lambeth and/or Liverpool by-elections when councillors were surcharged?

Total (so far) for Thursday 29th June 1967:-
GLC - one
Coventry - 8
Birmingham - 5
Solihull - one
Sutton Coldfield - one
Bristol - one
Gloucester - 4
Cheltenham - 3
Wells - one
Luton - 3
Leicester - one
Halesowen - 5
Nuneaton -one
Loughborough - 2
Mansfield - 2
Chester - 4
Southam - one
Lincoln -3
Newcastle-under-Lyme - one
Bournemouth - one
Brighouse - one
Torbay - 12
Goole - one
Ellesmere Port - 2
Nottingham - 2
Reading - 2
and there will be more. An eclectic set of results because, although the trend was obviously to the Right, Labour and Liberals made the odd gain.

Two votes were missing in Reading Park ward and usual local practice was to add these votes to the lowest polling candidate however both main parties refused because Mr Ford had fought a racist campaign. The missing votes were eventually found.

[carolus]

Sept 7, 2024 12:12:24 GMT hullenedge said:

Sept 7, 2024 11:07:56 GMT carolus said:

Inspired by the large number (20) byelections on 10 October:

1) Does anyone know what the record is for byelections on a day that is in some sense "normal"? e.g. not LE or GE Day, not immediately after covid, probably discounting days where postponed polls have been held after LE day. I can't imagine that 20 is the record, and if nothing else the number of councillors has been shrinking steadily.

2) Does anyone know what the record is for simultaneous byelections in a single authority? e.g. there are three in Ealing on 10 October, which surely can't be near the record!

Point 2 - There was the Clay Cross whole council by-election in 1974 (11 seats) but that can be topped by the 12 vacancies at Torbay on 29th June 1967 (vacancies caused by councillors raised to the aldermanic bench). It would not be a surprise if that 12 is exceeded for the 'olden days'. More recent times Lambeth and/or Liverpool by-elections when councillors were surcharged?

Total (so far) for Thursday 29th June 1967:-
GLC - one
Coventry - 8
Birmingham - 5
Solihull - one
Sutton Coldfield - one
Bristol - one
Gloucester - 4
Cheltenham - 3
Wells - one
Luton - 3
Leicester - one
Halesowen - 5
Nuneaton -one
Loughborough - 2
Mansfield - 2
Chester - 4
Southam - one
Lincoln -3
Newcastle-under-Lyme - one
Bournemouth - one
Brighouse - one
Torbay - 12
Goole - one
Ellesmere Port - 2
Nottingham - 2
Reading - 2
and there will be more. An eclectic set of results because, although the trend was obviously to the Right, Labour and Liberals made the odd gain.

Two votes were missing in Reading Park ward and usual local practice was to add these votes to the lowest polling candidate however both main parties refused because Mr Ford had fought a racist campaign. The missing votes were eventually found.

Thank you - very informative! I had wondered whether there was an example of a whole council, or perhaps whole party resignations. It certainly happens occasionally now for parishes, though generally small ones, and I imagine the pre-1974 councils often bore more resemblance to modern parish councils than the modern districts.