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Post by batman on Nov 16, 2023 19:11:48 GMT
I think anyone can ask for one, but a returning officer will not normally grant one unless it's justifiable. In Uxbridge & South Ruislip there was a recount but the Tories were further ahead than that. In a normal-sized constituency (i.e. not N'Eileanan an Iar, Orkney & Shetland or NW Wales) a margin of under 1000 votes is often enough for a recount to take place. In local elections obviously the threshold is set much lower.
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Post by Peter Wilkinson on Nov 16, 2023 19:14:11 GMT
How close does an election need to be for the losing candidate to justify asking for a recount? Speaking in terms of a parliamentary constituency - 200, 300 votes? In 1997, I did so on a just under 1,000 gap (no, I wasn't the candidate; I wasn't even the agent, who would usually in practice be the person to ask on behalf of the candidate; the agent was in a state of physical near-collapse and had asked me to deputise for her for the last bit of the count). And, as I'd basically stepped in at the last minute, I'd contacted regional Labour Party officials and was acting on their advice (demand a recount on anything under 1,000) - and I got the recount, despite complaints from all other parties. Of course, I then got my come-uppance - the recount added about 50 votes to the Conservative majority, taking it over 1,000. |
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andrewp
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Post by andrewp on Nov 16, 2023 19:15:57 GMT
Are there 2 levels of recount - a full one- every pile and every vote gets counted again- and a bundle check- check all the bundles are for the right candidate- and check the top and bottom votes on the pike?
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Post by johnloony on Nov 16, 2023 19:24:16 GMT
How close does an election need to be for the losing candidate to justify asking for a recount? Speaking in terms of a parliamentary constituency - 200, 300 votes? There have occasionally been recounts in constituencies where the winning margin was as much as 1,000. Any majority under 500 would be reasonable. But it depends a lot on the circumstances: there are different types of recounts (a large margin would :mean that just a quick bundle-flick would suffice). At the other end of the scale, in the local elections in Croydon in 2022, the margin in Waddon ward was 2, which increased to 3 in the recount. But we could all see that the recount was done very carefully and precisely, and there was no realistic chance of any further errors being found. Even if the margin had been only 1 vote, it would not have been realistic for anybody to ask for a second recount. I am also reminded of the general election result in Fife North East in which the margin was 2 votes but the result was declared relatively early anyway. I guess it probably means that the recount was equally precise and accurate and that it was a margin of 2 both times. The people at the count would probably have a good feel of how precise or chaotic the count has been, and whether there is much likelihood of any change. |
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Post by johnloony on Nov 16, 2023 19:32:42 GMT
Are there 2 levels of recount - a full one- every pile and every vote gets counted again- and a bundle check- check all the bundles are for the right candidate- and check the top and bottom votes on the pike? There are as many different types of recount as the R.O. thinks is reasonable. A big majority means a rough bundle-check. A small majority means more precision and care. How exactly the recount is conducted (in terms of actual physical movements of bits of paper) is for the staff to decide and for the agents and candidates to scrutinise. Any candidate can ask for a recount for any reason regardless of how big the margin was. It’s a matter of common sense whether the R.O. thinks that the request is “reasonable” in the circumstances (and the “circumstances” might mean things other than the size of the winning margin). I think that in 1974 there was a three-way marginal constituency in Scotland in which the count and the two recounts each produced a different winner; the fact that they didn’t have a further recount to confirm the winner of the second recount must have meant that everybody was content with the accuracy of the second recount, even though it was a different winner. |
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Post by greenchristian on Nov 16, 2023 19:37:26 GMT
Are there 2 levels of recount - a full one- every pile and every vote gets counted again- and a bundle check- check all the bundles are for the right candidate- and check the top and bottom votes on the pike? Yes there are.
On the number of votes needed to justify a recount, it does depend on a couple of different factors. The larger the total number of votes cast, the bigger the majority that can plausibly be overturned by a recount. And if the result is very far off from what your tallying shows, it's much more likely that something has gone wrong with the count.
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stb12
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Post by stb12 on Nov 16, 2023 20:40:14 GMT
Aside from Winchester and North East Fife type margins it seems unlikely that recounts will ever actually change the result
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Post by uthacalthing on Nov 16, 2023 20:45:51 GMT
Labour called for one in Aberdeen Central when they lost by 800. The RO was not keen to give them one and told them that amounted to 8 bundles, then asked "the rest" if we were happy with the result
I told him, "no, but I am content with it" and that was the last word on the subject.
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Clark
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Post by Clark on Nov 16, 2023 20:55:13 GMT
I'm not sure how many recounts Gerry Malone asked for in Winchester in 1997 but there was quite a few! The official result was declared the following night. It was silly of Malone to contest it as it was obvious he'd get thumped in the re-run.
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Post by greenhert on Nov 16, 2023 21:11:42 GMT
Labour called for one in Aberdeen Central when they lost by 800. The RO was not keen to give them one and told them that amounted to 8 bundles, then asked "the rest" if we were happy with the result I told him, "no, but I am content with it" and that was the last word on the subject. You mean by 617 back in 2011? Even then that is still too high for a recount. The rule of thumb is that only majorities in single or double digits can be recounted as to affect the result. |
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stb12
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Post by stb12 on Nov 16, 2023 21:16:24 GMT
Labour called for one in Aberdeen Central when they lost by 800. The RO was not keen to give them one and told them that amounted to 8 bundles, then asked "the rest" if we were happy with the result I told him, "no, but I am content with it" and that was the last word on the subject. You mean by 617 back in 2011? Even then that is still too high for a recount. The rule of thumb is that only majorities in single or double digits can be recounted as to affect the result. Senior Whig forgets election that he stood in |
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Post by batman on Nov 16, 2023 21:34:10 GMT
There was an extremely close result in Carmarthen in February 1974 when Labour's (at that time) Gwynoro Jones held on by 3 votes. What I heard happened is that there were quite a few recounts all producing different results, with both Labour & Plaid finishing on top; and that the two agents agreed that whichever result recurred once would be final. This was the result putting Labour ahead by 3. Of course Labour's relief did not last long as Plaid easily took the seat in October that year, although it went Labour again in 1979.
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nodealbrexiteer
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Nov 16, 2023 21:38:30 GMT
There was an extremely close result in Carmarthen in February 1974 when Labour's (at that time) Gwynoro Jones held on by 3 votes. What I heard happened is that there were quite a few recounts all producing different results, with both Labour & Plaid finishing on top; and that the two agents agreed that whichever result recurred once would be final. This was the result putting Labour ahead by 3. Of course Labour's relief did not last long as Plaid easily took the seat in October that year, although it went Labour again in 1979. One more Labour MP would've been useful end of March 1979! |
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stb12
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Post by stb12 on Nov 16, 2023 21:40:44 GMT
If I remember right the Lib Dems were unhappy when they got denied another recount at NE Fife in 2017 and would probably have had a decent case for a challenge but decided to leave it
Of course they managed to gain it two years later despite the SNP having an improved election overall so you could say they made the smart decision there
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ColinJ
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Post by ColinJ on Nov 16, 2023 21:46:02 GMT
There was an extremely close result in Carmarthen in February 1974 when Labour's (at that time) Gwynoro Jones held on by 3 votes. What I heard happened is that there were quite a few recounts all producing different results, with both Labour & Plaid finishing on top; and that the two agents agreed that whichever result recurred once would be final. This was the result putting Labour ahead by 3. Of course Labour's relief did not last long as Plaid easily took the seat in October that year, although it went Labour again in 1979. Gwynoro Jones at that time was my cousin's husband's cousin. A bit tenuous, I know...... |
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Post by batman on Nov 16, 2023 22:08:45 GMT
There was an extremely close result in Carmarthen in February 1974 when Labour's (at that time) Gwynoro Jones held on by 3 votes. What I heard happened is that there were quite a few recounts all producing different results, with both Labour & Plaid finishing on top; and that the two agents agreed that whichever result recurred once would be final. This was the result putting Labour ahead by 3. Of course Labour's relief did not last long as Plaid easily took the seat in October that year, although it went Labour again in 1979. One more Labour MP would've been useful end of March 1979! well yes, but Plaid did vote in favour of the government in that vote of confidence IIRC. Merlyn Rees made some promises about pneumaconiosis for miners that helped in that |
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nodealbrexiteer
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Nov 16, 2023 22:20:29 GMT
One more Labour MP would've been useful end of March 1979! Merlyn Rees made some promises about pneumaconiosis for miners that helped in that Lol I forgot that! Yes a bill to compensate them for the disease |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Nov 16, 2023 22:51:36 GMT
well yes, but Plaid did vote in favour of the government in that vote of confidence IIRC. Merlyn Rees made some promises about pneumaconiosis for miners that helped in that Lol I forgot that! Yes a bill to compensate them for the disease Wasn't it for quarrymen rather than miners? |
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Post by batman on Nov 16, 2023 22:54:13 GMT
Well I remember Merlyn Rees, trying to fight off allegations that he was only doing this to save the government's skin, indignantly saying he was a miner's son & cared a great deal about it (though his Wikipedia entry makes no mention of his dad being a miner)
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Post by gwynthegriff on Nov 16, 2023 23:00:21 GMT
Well I remember Merlyn Rees, trying to fight off allegations that he was only doing this to save the government's skin, indignantly saying he was a miner's son & cared a great deal about it (though his Wikipedia entry makes no mention of his dad being a miner) I think there had been an NCB scheme from 1974; the 1979 changes increased sums payable, refined the system and - and I believe this was the crucial point for Plaid support - extended it to other industries such as pottery workers (John Golding spoke in one debate on that subject) and slate quarry workers (very relevant to the two North Wales Plaid MPs). But miners certainly also gained from the changes. |
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