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Post by finsobruce on Jul 25, 2016 22:30:44 GMT
If we dont know that then our secret services are not doing their properly. Does he seek to overthrow the UK goverment, as the Soviet Union sought? Well, Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition seems to see that as a secondary concern behind bickering, so why should Putin prioritise it? It might lower property prices in London for Russians? |
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Post by finsobruce on Jul 25, 2016 22:38:04 GMT
It might lower property prices in London for Russians? I can't imagine he wants his people to lose all that equity! I imagine the Stamp Duty rules would be different for "exiles".  |
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 25, 2016 23:47:00 GMT
There's a lot we can talk about on this subject, but mostly I wish to draw to your attention one Paul Manafort a senior figure on the Trump campaign who is literally on the Kremlin's payroll. Wow! With those credentials I am amazed he isn't working for the Clintons. He may not be quite as bent as Hilary but she should be able to use him in her lie factory. |
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 25, 2016 23:49:50 GMT
If he really waned to fcuk the USA he would be working to get Hilary elected. |
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 25, 2016 23:53:43 GMT
Terrible him boosting the propaganda efforts of parties he thinks are most favourable to his interests. Its not as if every major power in modern history hasn't done the same thing, including the UK and the US. At least he isn't using proxy groups to violently overthrow and/or rebel against governments he doesn't like. That's more a Hillary Clinton thing. You have heard of a country called Ukraine, right? You mean the ludicrous separatist basket case run by a corrupt tyrant pretending to be a country perhaps? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 0:05:45 GMT
You have heard of a country called Ukraine, right? You mean the ludicrous separatist basket case run by a corrupt tyrant pretending to be a country perhaps? Ukraine isn't pretending to be a nation, it is one. The Russian speaking part of Ukraine identifies as Ukrainians - they just have a partially different definition of what that means. The separatism is mostly a Russian construct and the separatist forces filled with Russian recruits. One aspect that often gets overlooked is that the Russian speaking part of Ukraine was a problem for Putin because it had big Russian speaking cities with a large enough market to sustain free Russian media, publishers etc. Getting control over it was important for sustaining his own power. A country doesn't stop being a country because its ruled by a corrupt tyrant. Half the nations of Europe would have seized to exist at some point using that definition (and nearly all of the African and Latin American ones). |
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,028
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Post by Sibboleth on Jul 26, 2016 0:11:44 GMT
Only half?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 1:02:54 GMT
Ukraine isn't pretending to be a nation, it is one. The Russian speaking part of Ukraine identifies as Ukrainians - they just have a partially different definition of what that means. The separatism is mostly a Russian construct and the separatist forces filled with Russian recruits. One aspect that often gets overlooked is that the Russian speaking part of Ukraine was a problem for Putin because it had big Russian speaking cities with a large enough market to sustain free Russian media, publishers etc. Getting control over it was important for sustaining his own power. A country doesn't stop being a country because its ruled by a corrupt tyrant. Half the nations of Europe would have seized to exist at some point using that definition (and nearly all of the African and Latin American ones). Rubbish it is an accident from the hurried break up of the USSR where the malign influence of the USA attempted to engineer pseudo buffer states between what is now the core pared down Russia and the old start of the west. instead of easing Russia into a post soviet mode of friendship and mutual co-operation. That was a terrible period of lost opportunity and naked ex Cold War stupidity. At times the USA can really be a piece of work....Like most days really. Its not rubbish. The complex east/west divide in Ukrainian identity has been studied extensively. Ukrainian identity and nationalism existed throughout Soviet times (and among expat communities in fx Canada). They are not Russians, but a separate people with their own culture and language. There were Cossack led Ruthenian risings against the Poles in the Commonwealth Era and a struggle to uphold a separate church (the Ukrainian Greek Catholic). The Ukrainian Insurgent Army fought both the Nazis and the Red Army during WW2 and fought on to 1949 (pockets of resistance continued to the mid-50s). The only ex-Soviet state that is partially "pseudo" is Belarus because the population is so Russified, but the others are separate nations with their own national cultures. The US had nothing to do with the dissolution of the Soviet Union, which had started unraveling because the overlay of Soviet repression had been lifted and national identities were reinvigorated. It is no coincidence this process started in the Baltic countries that had been independent in the pre-war yes and where anti-Soviet guerillas fought for their freedom until the mid-1950s. Yeltsin had control of Russia and dissolving the Soviet Union was the realistic way to push the Communist structures aside. He had no realistic way of controlling the entire Soviet Union. At that time it was assumed SNG could work and secure cooperation, but the leaders of the new nations had no desire to get back under Russian dominance (with Belarus and a couple of the Central Asian republics as partial exceptions). |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Jul 26, 2016 9:06:33 GMT
You really are too good to be true. I reckon you're really a stone cold Blairite having a laugh at all our expense. Bravo sir, bravo! And you are too anal and stupid to be true. But thats life. Direct personal insults Carlton? I thought better of you. On your point of the break-up of the Soviet Union, probably Stalin has to take some responsibility for the nations and peoples policy he pursued that effectively created the post Soviet states that we have today. As for the Ukraine, remember that it even had its own seat at the UN such was the importance the USSR put on its distinctiveness and to keep separate movements at bay. |
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
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Post by john07 on Jul 26, 2016 9:10:13 GMT
carlton43 appears to be turning into a characature of himself! Very worrying!
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 26, 2016 9:37:25 GMT
And you are too anal and stupid to be true. But thats life. Direct personal insults Carlton? I thought better of you. On your point of the break-up of the Soviet Union, probably Stalin has to take some responsibility for the nations and peoples policy he pursued that effectively created the post Soviet states that we have today. As for the Ukraine, remember that it even had its own seat at the UN such was the importance the USSR put on its distinctiveness and to keep separate movements at bay. It was late. I was tired and I was cross. It serves no purpose and I apologize to you. Deleted gladly. |
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 26, 2016 9:50:21 GMT
You mean the ludicrous separatist basket case run by a corrupt tyrant pretending to be a country perhaps? Ukraine isn't pretending to be a nation, it is one. The Russian speaking part of Ukraine identifies as Ukrainians - they just have a partially different definition of what that means. The separatism is mostly a Russian construct and the separatist forces filled with Russian recruits. One aspect that often gets overlooked is that the Russian speaking part of Ukraine was a problem for Putin because it had big Russian speaking cities with a large enough market to sustain free Russian media, publishers etc. Getting control over it was important for sustaining his own power. A country doesn't stop being a country because its ruled by a corrupt tyrant. Half the nations of Europe would have seized to exist at some point using that definition (and nearly all of the African and Latin American ones). I love the "...seized to exist..." It has a life of its own. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,916
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 26, 2016 9:50:37 GMT
Was your denial that Ukrainian nationality is an actual thing also a product of tiredness, then?
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 26, 2016 10:01:25 GMT
carlton43 appears to be turning into a characature of himself! Very worrying! Poor evening. I think the nature of the thread and the attitude of the OP caused a malfunction in this Russophile who loathes Clinton, and that informed everything I did in a swirl of adrenalin but not of whiskey dear friends. I have made some deletions but I cannot and would not unsay the tenor of my posts in which I still believe. That period of collapse of the USSR could have been so productive and inclusive and positive , but we of the West referred buffering and containment to inclusion and support. That was an overhang of American Cold War payback, and so deeply disappointing. Since then we have reviled and provoked Russia at every turn and we are still doing it over the Olympics now. Any means to have a go and to prod the bear is warmly embraced. It is unedifying and deeply unwise. The ill-drawn cartoon has been rubbed out by the artist! |
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 26, 2016 10:04:23 GMT
Was your denial that Ukrainian nationality is an actual thing also a product of tiredness, then? For some people it is just not worth trying to explain or apologize is it Bish? You just want a pound of flesh bleeding on the plate. FCUK OFF! |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,916
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 26, 2016 10:05:19 GMT
Well, that's nice.
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 26, 2016 10:23:50 GMT
As in the scent of socialism.........................'You're Worth It'! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 14:20:20 GMT
This article makes a solid case.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 26, 2016 15:35:03 GMT
If the Ukraine is a pseudo country, there's a good case for Russia being one too.
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Post by No Offence Alan on Jul 26, 2016 17:39:23 GMT
can anyone outline to me in what way Russia or Putin represents any threat to me or my nation? None, which is why the Trident replacement is such an effing waste of money. |
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