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Post by finsobruce on Mar 17, 2017 21:21:10 GMT
What's one of those when it's at home? The type of art you describe here is a load of bollocks and would not add weight to your argument even if it were of some merit. Few people are "more acquainted" with a place due to its status as an "ancient borough" these days. As you say, it's your opinion, so I don't see how you can dismiss my more reasoned and up-to-date viewpoint as 'rubbish'. Helston and Penzance are both larger than St Ives and more deserving of being mentioned in the constituency name, especially because the current name is far from unambiguous. If you're going to get sentimental about historic seat names, there are better places to defend. So, I made a typo (unusual for me) and the name is Alfred Wallis.....A quite superb Cornish Fisherman/Artist. Your opinion 'more reasoned'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You did not advance a single reason for your booliak pretension. Name a single virtue of your St. Ives. I know both places well by the by.
"Strong men have blanched and shot their wives rather than send them to St Ives"
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 17, 2017 21:27:06 GMT
So, I made a typo (unusual for me) and the name is Alfred Wallis.....A quite superb Cornish Fisherman/Artist. Your opinion 'more reasoned'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You did not advance a single reason for your booliak pretension. Name a single virtue of your St. Ives. I know both places well by the by.
"Strong men have blanched and shot their wives rather than send them to St Ives"I trust they blanched the wives after shooting them and shot in the back so as not to spoil the appearance?
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 17, 2017 21:37:38 GMT
"Strong men have blanched and shot their wives rather than send them to St Ives" I trust they blanched the wives after shooting them and shot in the back so as not to spoil the appearance? As i was going to St Ives i met a man who'd blanched his wives....
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Mar 17, 2017 21:45:30 GMT
I trust they blanched the wives after shooting them and shot in the back so as not to spoil the appearance? As i was going to St Ives i met a man who'd blanched his wives.... How many women called Blanche did he marry?
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Mar 17, 2017 21:46:55 GMT
Foggy, from your recent posts it's like you and I are slightly in agreement before bouncing off again like magnets. So which bits of my posts do you agree with, and which ones cause you to back away in repulsion?? What's one of those when it's at home? The type of art you describe here is a load of bollocks and would not add weight to your argument even if it were of some merit. Few people are "more acquainted" with a place due to its status as an "ancient borough" these days. As you say, it's your opinion, so I don't see how you can dismiss my more reasoned and up-to-date viewpoint as 'rubbish'. Helston and Penzance are both larger than St Ives and more deserving of being mentioned in the constituency name, especially because the current name is far from unambiguous. If you're going to get sentimental about historic seat names, there are better places to defend. So, I made a typo (unusual for me) and the name is Alfred Wallis.....A quite superb Cornish Fisherman/Artist. Your opinion 'more reasoned'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You did not advance a single reason for your booliak pretension. Name a single virtue of your St. Ives. I know both places well by the by. Good for him. Never heard of him myself, but it wouldn't be relevant to the naming of parliamentary seats even if I had. Plenty of towns contain galleries and have produced more famous artists and don't have seats named after them. Penzance is also a seaside town. There are more than 600 of those so they can't all have a constituency named after them. The other St Ives isn't 'mine'. You didn't advance a single good reason for your position in the first place. My grandmother was born in Redruth and I've only been to the other town's county once, so I have far more of a connection to the Cornish one. I am not advocating giving another part of the country a constituency with that name either, but I am seeking to avoid ambiguity.
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Post by Foggy on Mar 17, 2017 21:54:24 GMT
If that isn't relevant, then why don't we bring back Old Sarum? As I said, I don't like the use of compass directions in rural seats. The original guidelines issued when something approaching universal suffrage was introduced indicated that county seats should be named after a significant town in the constituency. I accept that two names might be appropriate in some cases nowadays. In rare cases there may also be a reasonable alternative to describe the area that is not a single settlement (Fylde, Rushcliffe etc.). In more unusual instances still the name of a small village could be retained as a compromise seat name (e.g. Eye) among larger towns as long as there is no ambiguity. Is 'West Cornwall' a problem for you? It would be for me. I would suggest 'St Ives and Penzance' as a halfway house since it makes it clear which St Ives is being referenced... but that'd still be harsh on the Scilly Isles (which obviously has a small population but is geographically exceptional).
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 17, 2017 21:59:11 GMT
As i was going to St Ives i met a man who'd blanched his wives.... How many women called Blanche did he marry? All those who didn't catch a streetcar named desire.
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 17, 2017 22:05:50 GMT
What's one of those when it's at home? The type of art you describe here is a load of bollocks and would not add weight to your argument even if it were of some merit. Few people are "more acquainted" with a place due to its status as an "ancient borough" these days. As you say, it's your opinion, so I don't see how you can dismiss my more reasoned and up-to-date viewpoint as 'rubbish'. Helston and Penzance are both larger than St Ives and more deserving of being mentioned in the constituency name, especially because the current name is far from unambiguous. If you're going to get sentimental about historic seat names, there are better places to defend. So, I made a typo (unusual for me) and the name is Alfred Wallis.....A quite superb Cornish Fisherman/Artist. The short novel "The Voyages of Alfred Wallis" by Peter Everett is worth a read www.goodreads.com/book/show/7279120-the-voyages-of-alfred-wallis
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Post by Foggy on Mar 17, 2017 22:14:14 GMT
How many women called Blanche did he marry? All those who didn't catch a streetcar named desire. On this basis I propose renaming Huntingdon to New Orleans North.
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Post by johnloony on Mar 17, 2017 22:43:52 GMT
I have never liked the nomenclature like distinction between county constituencies and borough constituencies, whereby counties are called "West Thingyshire" and towns are called "Thingy West". I think this distinction should be abandoned and that everything should be "Thingy West" (which is what most anoraks and broadcasters do anyway). Therefore I would prefer "Cornwall West" rather than "West Cornwall". But if I were naming that constituency ab initio, I would call it "Land's End" rather than "Cornwall West". If you need to include the islands in the name, I would just call it "...and Scilly" rather than "...and the Isles of Scilly".
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 17, 2017 22:45:31 GMT
All those who didn't catch a streetcar named desire. On this basis I propose renaming Huntingdon to New Orleans North. Huntingdon sur le Bayou?
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 17, 2017 23:19:51 GMT
Foggy, from your recent posts it's like you and I are slightly in agreement before bouncing off again like magnets. So which bits of my posts do you agree with, and which ones cause you to back away in repulsion?? So, I made a typo (unusual for me) and the name is Alfred Wallis.....A quite superb Cornish Fisherman/Artist. Your opinion 'more reasoned'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You did not advance a single reason for your booliak pretension. Name a single virtue of your St. Ives. I know both places well by the by. Good for him. Never heard of him myself, but it wouldn't be relevant to the naming of parliamentary seats even if I had. Plenty of towns contain galleries and have produced more famous artists and don't have seats named after them. Penzance is also a seaside town. There are more than 600 of those so they can't all have a constituency named after them. The other St Ives isn't 'mine'. You didn't advance a single good reason for your position in the first place. My grandmother was born in Redruth and I've only been to the other town's county once, so I have far more of a connection to the Cornish one. I am not advocating giving another part of the country a constituency with that name either, but I am seeking to avoid ambiguity. Utter poppycock.........And you know it. There is not one whit of ambiguity as the one is totally unknown to virtually everyone and the other has been known as a constituency in the deep south west for generations.
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 17, 2017 23:36:03 GMT
If that isn't relevant, then why don't we bring back Old Sarum? As I said, I don't like the use of compass directions in rural seats. The original guidelines issued when something approaching universal suffrage was introduced indicated that county seats should be named after a significant town in the constituency. I accept that two names might be appropriate in some cases nowadays. In rare cases there may also be a reasonable alternative to describe the area that is not a single settlement (Fylde, Rushcliffe etc.). In more unusual instances still the name of a small village could be retained as a compromise seat name (e.g. Eye) among larger towns as long as there is no ambiguity. Is 'West Cornwall' a problem for you? It would be for me. I would suggest 'St Ives and Penzance' as a halfway house since it makes it clear which St Ives is being referenced... but that'd still be harsh on the Scilly Isles (which obviously has a small population but is geographically exceptional). This is witless nonsense. It has been known as St. Ives for ages. Why change it? You content that for 100-years or more concerned voters have been worried that the Cornish MP might actually be representing a part of Cambridgeshire as well? Or Instead? Or is actually their MP and not in Cornwall at all. Most people have no interest at all unless they live in either of the two St. Ives. If they do they are NOT confused. If they are insiders in HOC, BBC, commentators, pundits or anoraks like us......They bloody know. There is no problem. This is gormless tripe at the expense of getting rid of yet another fine old constituency name........As with Richmond, Ludlow, Oswestry, Tiverton, Torrington, Buckrose, Eye, Isle of Ely, etc. Down with modernism. Up with Old Sarum and it's voter. Trouble is it was a Whig Pitt Rotten Boro' and not one of ours.
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Post by Foggy on Mar 17, 2017 23:36:07 GMT
Utter poppycock.........And you know it. There is not one whit of ambiguity as the one is totally unknown to virtually everyone and the other has been known as a constituency in the deep south west for generations. I'm sorry but I do not accept that this is nonsense. I hate to break it to you, but neither St Ives is actually particularly renowned... whether for virtues, favourite sons or otherwise. I believe that future reviews should – in as much as they concern themselves with nomenclature, which sadly seems to be a bit of an afterthought for the BCE this time – mostly be about creating recognisable constituency names for future generations rather than past ones. John Loony's suggestion of "Land's End" is reasonable as it's a nationally famous local geographical feature, and also the name of the airport at St Just that increasing numbers of (mainly young) visitors to that end of Cornwall from afar will be familiar with.
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 17, 2017 23:41:06 GMT
I trust they blanched the wives after shooting them and shot in the back so as not to spoil the appearance? As i was going to St Ives i met a man who'd blanched his wives.... And as Oi was goin' to St. Ivel I met a man without a navel. A I was going to St. Erth I met a man who'd given birth.
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Mar 17, 2017 23:44:09 GMT
If that isn't relevant, then why don't we bring back Old Sarum? As I said, I don't like the use of compass directions in rural seats. The original guidelines issued when something approaching universal suffrage was introduced indicated that county seats should be named after a significant town in the constituency. I accept that two names might be appropriate in some cases nowadays. In rare cases there may also be a reasonable alternative to describe the area that is not a single settlement (Fylde, Rushcliffe etc.). In more unusual instances still the name of a small village could be retained as a compromise seat name (e.g. Eye) among larger towns as long as there is no ambiguity. Is 'West Cornwall' a problem for you? It would be for me. I would suggest 'St Ives and Penzance' as a halfway house since it makes it clear which St Ives is being referenced... but that'd still be harsh on the Scilly Isles (which obviously has a small population but is geographically exceptional). This is witless nonsense. It has been known as St. Ives for ages. Why change it? You content that for 100-years or more concerned voters have been worried that the Cornish MP might actually be representing a part of Cambridgeshire as well? Or Instead? Or is actually their MP and not in Cornwall at all. Most people have no interest at all unless they live in either of the two St. Ives. If they do they are NOT confused. If they are insiders in HOC, BBC, commentators, pundits or anoraks like us......They bloody know. There is no problem. This is gormless tripe at the expense of getting rid of yet another fine old constituency name........As with Richmond, Ludlow, Oswestry, Tiverton, Torrington, Buckrose, Eye, Isle of Ely, etc. Down with modernism. Up with Old Sarum and it's [sic] voter. It is far from witless and eminently sensible. No, I don't think voters in the town themselves are confused. Some in the Penzance part of the constituency might well be miffed that the seat is still named after a smaller town, however. In general I don't think that seats should just be named for insiders and anoraks, with a few exceptions. As I said, there's some room for sentiment. I wouldn't mind bringing back 'Eye'. I had to Google 'Buckrose' (it was abolished when even you were 7, but I concede it would be preferable to 'Yorkshire East'). Torrington has already gone, and Ludlow and Oswestry will have to with the new rules. Tiverton has been 'Tiverton & Honiton' for a while now, whilst Richmond would be ambiguous without appending '(Yorks)' to the name (although it's been called that for longer than Richmond Park in London). The Isle of Ely name could certainly work for East Cambridgeshire. You are fighting a losing battle on this last front and you know it. The current Conservative Party shows no signs of returning to that sort of position.
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 17, 2017 23:48:11 GMT
Utter poppycock.........And you know it. There is not one whit of ambiguity as the one is totally unknown to virtually everyone and the other has been known as a constituency in the deep south west for generations. I'm sorry but I do not accept that this is nonsense. I hate to break it to you, but neither St Ives is actually particularly renowned... whether for virtues, favourite sons or otherwise. I believe that future reviews should – in as much as they concern themselves with nomenclature, which sadly seems to be a bit of an afterthought for the BCE this time – mostly be about creating recognisable constituency names for future generations rather than past ones. John Loony's suggestion of "Land's End" is reasonable as it's a nationally famous local geographical feature, and also the name of the airport at St Just that increasing numbers of (mainly young) visitors to that end of Cornwall from afar will be familiar with. You can only assert that out of base ignorance. The Cornwall St. Ives is world famous in art terms under numerous heads and is associated with a large number of famous persons. I contend that it is the actual birthplace of Abstract Expressionism and will be recognized as such in due course. The Tate St. Ives alone eclipses anything at the other lesser town. I believe you have a weak knowledge of art history or you just could not maintain this nonsense any further.
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Post by Foggy on Mar 17, 2017 23:49:39 GMT
I'm not claiming to have any knowledge of the history of art!!
I am merely pointing out that this is utterly, totally, wholly and completely irrelevant when it comes to the naming of parliamentary constituencies.
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 17, 2017 23:56:02 GMT
As i was going to St Ives i met a man who'd blanched his wives.... And as Oi was goin' to St. Ivel I met a man without a navel. A I was going to St. Erth I met a man who'd given birth. As I was going to St Michael I bought some socks and a sherry trifle.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 23:57:03 GMT
I don't know if I find myself closer to Foggy or Carlton. Here goes.
As the Forum knows as a rule, my submissions to boundary commissions of both a local and parliamentary bent tend to focus on names rather than boundaries per se. I can give a tweak here and there and have, without much good, looked at boundaries as a project to eat into a lazy hour or five, but my main focus has always been on the names of seats and not the area within boundaries.
I have always believed that constituency names, specifically, should reflect and represent the area to which they are attached. No hard and fast rule, no absolute rule, but a guideline from which to work. So, yes, I am the kind of person who much prefers names to have two, three or four elements rather than just one. I would much prefer to have "A & B" than just "A". I would much prefer to have "A, B and W north" than just "A". I approve of names in Scotland and Wales which use minority languages where it is sensible to do so, and as it stands, I think the policy on these matters in particular (insofar as there is a policy) is used very well.
"St Ives" as a name has represented, give or take a few swift ticks of the administrator's pencil, the same area of Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly for more years than I dare to check. It is a time capsule of a name, from when the rules on such things were very different to what they are now. Changing it for the sake of changing it probably isn't sensible, and I accept that this is a change from my usual view that, in the context of regionally wide reviews, anything goes. In this case, by and large, it should stay.
But I don't use this one example to mean that ALL such examples are identical. There are long standing constituency names which I would consider changing. Each seat has its own areas of focus, its own circles of influence. To give an example from the current boundary review, if things go the way the local Tories desire, I would suggest "Pendle and Rural Burnley" as a constituency name to ensure that all elements of the new seat go represented.
Unlike Foggy, I am not a traditional county man. I think that I may have mentioned this quite specifically at the public meeting of the Zombie Review, actually. Where it makes sense, or seems too long in the tooth to change, "one town to represent them all" is perhaps the best way to go. That said, I like "Hereford and South Herefordshire", I like "York Outer" now that I've got used to it, and I just hope that somebody, please, at the BCE replaces "North Lancashire" with "Valleys of Ribble and Lune".
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