johnloony
Conservative
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Post by johnloony on Mar 22, 2017 1:40:10 GMT
I'm perfectly happy with the Welsh and Gaelic names, but I think the common sense thing to do would be to say that each Welsh constituency has two official names, one in each language. If you're speaking Welsh you talk about Ynys Môn and Caerdydd Canolog; if you're speaking English you talk about Anglesey and Cardiff Central. That seems to be what the BCW is actually moving towards anyway. Similarly Highland and Hebridean constituencies can have an English name and a Gaelic name. I think that both "Ceredigion" and "Meirionnydd" are now English names, or rather Welsh names that are used in English, along the same lines as "Llanelli". Both have articles with those titles in the English language Wikipedia. I would certainly refer to the county containing Aberystwyth as "Ceredigion" (with a somewhat Anglicised pronunciation, of course); referring to it as "Cardiganshire" feels like something out of the 1950s or trying to make some Little Englander point. It depends on who the audience is. If, for some reason, I had a need to talk to my parents about the MP for Ynys Mon, I would probably just say "the MP for Anglesey" rather than doing any more long-winded explanation of what or where "Ynys Mon" is. Or "Cardigan" instead of "Ceredigion" or whatever. If I were talking to a fellow psephologist or politician, I would say "Ynys Mon" because I would know that they know what I mean. It's a bit like the answer to "Where do you live?". Depending on who is asking, I would say: "Fairfield ward" if it's a fellow Croydon politician "Park Hill" if it's a non-politician who knows Croydon well "Central Croydon" if it's someone who knows Croydon slightly "Croydon" if it's a Londoner "London" if it's a non-London UK person who might not know where Croydon is within London "London" or "England" or "UK" if it's a foreigner "Local Bubble" if it's an alien from thousands of light-years away
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Post by An Sionnach Flannbhuí on Mar 22, 2017 21:48:37 GMT
What's wrong with all 29 Welsh constituencies having a dual name? The law. Boundary Commission for Wales, Fourth Periodical Report, page 7. As far as I know the law hasn’t changed though the Welsh Commission has done bilingual names in their report. They are riding for a fall when Plaid and the like work out this won't carry over into the relevant legislation.
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
Long may it rain
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Post by Foggy on Mar 22, 2017 22:11:37 GMT
Thank you for pointing this out. Further proof that the primary legislation governing boundary reviews has not been properly thought through and needs further revision.
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Post by An Sionnach Flannbhuí on Mar 22, 2017 22:21:38 GMT
Thank you for pointing this out. Further proof that the primary legislation governing boundary reviews has not been properly thought through and needs further revision. That is not the point. A Quango should act according to law. If you do not like what the Quango suggests, change the law, do not tell the Quango to ignore the law.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 22:48:22 GMT
The Welsh Commission has, this time and during the Zombie Review, proposed dual names for all their constituencies.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 9:08:18 GMT
I'm with Penddu on this. I understand the concern that if, for example, Ynys Môn is allowed because of the dominant language on the island, then why can't বেথনাল গ্রিন ও বো be used for Bethnal Green and Bow? I think we all know the answer to that one: it starts with "common sense". Welsh is not a dying tongue from an obscure sect. Its use in constituency names reflects its real life use, everyday. Trust me, I spent a weekend in Porthmadog slightly embarrassed by how little more than "Diolch" I could stutter whenever a local would keep a door open for me before-and-during chatting away in Welsh to a friend. It would be a backward step to return to English names in parts of Wales where the English name is in second place to Welsh. The common complaint, "what about English people/media being unable to pronounce it", well tough cheese (or for that matter caws caled). Yeah, problem with that argument ultimately is thst Anglesey is very likely no longer majority Welsh speaking. Only 57% are actually able to speak Welsh, so to suggest it is the most commonly used language on a daily basis seems pushing it. Wouldn't be surprised if D...... M...... Is the only seat where Welsh is the most commonly used language. Looking at Bangors % of Welsh speakers I doubt Arfon makes it.
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Post by Lord Twaddleford on Mar 23, 2017 13:08:17 GMT
Something that must be worth noting on the numbers for Welsh speakers, is that from what I've been told, the pertinent question on the 2011 census form was flawed, and that the 2011 census results don't exactly reflect the true numbers of the time; that is to say, it under-represents the amount of Welsh speakers in an area. The question only asked about native speaking ability, and not if a person could speak the language in general (as a 1st or 2nd tongue).
For example, in my council ward the 2011 census said that 35.8% of the population spoke Welsh, when in reality that number is actually somewhat higher; what's happening is that although there are plenty of Welsh speakers around, a lot of them just use English most of the time as it's often more convenient.
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piperdave
SNP
Dalkeith; Midlothian/North & Musselburgh
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Post by piperdave on Mar 23, 2017 22:54:18 GMT
I don't mind Carlton's system of naming constituencies although my preference is for short, descriptive, accurate and historical constituency names which are recognisable to local people. What do you do when two towns are split down the middle, forming one constituency? (For example, the proposed "Hamilton and Motherwell" constituency)? You call it Hamilton obviously. (Not that I lived there for 23 years or anything.) I have to admit I haven't looked at the maps for some time and have seriously depressed myself with what an awful job the Boundary Commission did here. I think I'd call the seat Larkhall & Wishaw or Mid-Lanarkshire just to highlight the abomination that it is.
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
Long may it rain
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Post by Foggy on Mar 24, 2017 1:11:18 GMT
Thank you for pointing this out. Further proof that the primary legislation governing boundary reviews has not been properly thought through and needs further revision. That is not the point. A Quango should act according to law. If you do not like what the Quango suggests, change the law, do not tell the Quango to ignore the law.Those of us trying to sift through the many comments left on the BCE consultation site – especially but not exclusively those related to 'Devonwall' – have been banging our heads on desks and wanting to shout this at the top of our voice for the past 4 weeks. It does not appear that the law specifically forbids alternate names in spite of what you cited. If it does, then (as doktorb points out) the Welsh Commission has been acting unlawfully for quite some time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 22:41:44 GMT
Something that must be worth noting on the numbers for Welsh speakers, is that from what I've been told, the pertinent question on the 2011 census form was flawed, and that the 2011 census results don't exactly reflect the true numbers of the time; that is to say, it under-represents the amount of Welsh speakers in an area. The question only asked about native speaking ability, and not if a person could speak the language in general (as a 1st or 2nd tongue). For example, in my council ward the 2011 census said that 35.8% of the population spoke Welsh, when in reality that number is actually somewhat higher; what's happening is that although there are plenty of Welsh speakers around, a lot of them just use English most of the time as it's often more convenient. What im interested in is the number who speak Welsh in preference to English at home. If this figure is below 50, then surely the seat name should be in English.
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