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Post by La Fontaine on Mar 20, 2017 12:36:55 GMT
Boundary commission drew it not me! Blaydon is central in the constituency but on the name alone I wouldn't think the seat was mostly made up of Newcastle. It needs Whickham tacked on the end because Whickham is much more separate from Newcastle than Blaydon and also because Blaydon is misleading since Winlaton is in a different constituency despite it really being just one place. It's actually slightly more Gateshead and does include much more Whickham than Blaydon. It's such a dreadful concoction that I cannot believe it will survive, though Labour is currently supporting it, while Tories & Lib-Dems have poor substitutes. I would not say Whickham is much more separate from Newcastle. Whickham has a Newcastle postal address while Blaydon does not, for example. Generally, I follow fairly orthodox naming principles: no more than two names (I notice Lib-Dems like to use three); add Gateshead East to Jarrow if more Gateshead wards are added; use Sedgefield not Newton Aycliffe and Easington not Peterlee for old times sake; use Wallsend perhaps, not North Tyneside as the latter is both misleading (only half the borough) and routinely wrongly called Tyneside North (ugh); keep a City of Durham if reasonably possible. The "upon Tyne" incidentally is falling into disuse and should be deleted in my view.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 20, 2017 12:51:09 GMT
Boundary commission drew it not me! Blaydon is central in the constituency but on the name alone I wouldn't think the seat was mostly made up of Newcastle. It needs Whickham tacked on the end because Whickham is much more separate from Newcastle than Blaydon and also because Blaydon is misleading since Winlaton is in a different constituency despite it really being just one place. It's actually slightly more Gateshead and does include much more Whickham than Blaydon. It's such a dreadful concoction that I cannot believe it will survive, though Labour is currently supporting it, while Tories & Lib-Dems have poor substitutes. I would not say Whickham is much more separate from Newcastle. Whickham has a Newcastle postal address while Blaydon does not, for example. Generally, I follow fairly orthodox naming principles: no more than two names (I notice Lib-Dems like to use three); add Gateshead East to Jarrow if more Gateshead wards are added; use Sedgefield not Newton Aycliffe and Easington not Peterlee for old times sake; use Wallsend perhaps, not North Tyneside as the latter is both misleading (only half the borough) and routinely wrongly called Tyneside North (ugh); keep a City of Durham if reasonably possible. The "upon Tyne" incidentally is falling into disuse and should be deleted in my view. Agree the ethos of all that. much the same as mine. In essence I want single names, historic connections preserved, national recognition quality, simplicity, but nothing slavish to any of those if a double name or a compass point really assists. No hang-ups on North Tyneside against Tyneside North, but Mid must come first. Drop 'City of' from Durham. Leave 'on Tyne' with Newcastle as there is another Newcastle constituency and shoals of Newcastles in Britain.
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jamie
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Post by jamie on Mar 20, 2017 13:33:53 GMT
La Fontaine carlton43 If that boundary survives I've lost all faith in the boundary commission. My general criteria for names: I like names that are short but still describe the area. With well drawn boundaries, you can usually get shorter names (don't split up places to get east and west, not so geographically disparate that you need to name 3 places across the constituencies etc). Avoid county compass points where possible, much prefer an actual settlement. If you need compass points anywhere, make sure you have a corresponding opposite I.e. no East without West. Don't include non-English language except where a large proportion of the population don't speak English, so goodbye to the proposed Welsh names. I would allow for non-English language settlements and counties to be used. Names should be the largest settlement, not some random village. If local people don't understand the name then it needs to go. Dont use names like Plymouth Moor View, just use compass points.
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Post by Penddu on Mar 20, 2017 13:48:03 GMT
Don't include non-English language except where a large proportion of the population don't speak English, so goodbye to the proposed Welsh names. I give you for example Pontypridd - Welsh name where majority speak English..are you going to rename it Earth Bridge? Or Blaenau Gwent, Rhondda, Merthyr, , Torfaen (ok could rename this Pontypool And Cwmbran...)....? You are talking cachu....
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Post by islington on Mar 20, 2017 13:55:49 GMT
Thanks to Jamie for reminding me of something I forgot when I posted my naming rules just upthread: the 'corresponding opposite' rule for compass-point names, although I think of it more as a 'balance' rule.
That is, if a town is divided into two seats and one of them is 'North' (or 'East', 'North East', &c), then the other should be 'South' (or 'West', 'South West') and so on. But it's OK for a city like Leicester, with three seats, to have 'East', 'South' and 'West' because this still balances (only now it's a three-way balance instead of two-way) - it doesn't matter that 'Leicester South' lacks a correspondingly opposite 'Leicester North'.
This 'balance' rule applies only to towns, not counties. Warrington North needs a balancing Warrington South, but West Gloucestershire, for instance, or North East Essex, can stand on their own merits without requiring opposite or balancing 'compass' seats elsewhere in their respective counties.
Another point on compass names is that where there's a 'Central' seat, the name signifies that it contains the original and oldest part of the town or city, which is not necessarily in its geographical centre. This is different to 'Mid', in a county seat, which definitely ought to be more or less in the middle of the county.
Just to repeat what I said before - these are my own idiosyncratic rules, I'm not trying to impose them on anyone else.
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Post by islington on Mar 20, 2017 13:57:33 GMT
Don't include non-English language except where a large proportion of the population don't speak English, so goodbye to the proposed Welsh names. I give you for example Pontypridd - Welsh name where majority speak English..are you going to rename it Earth Bridge? Or Blaenau Gwent, Rhondda, Merthyr, , Torfaen (ok could rename this Pontypool And Cwmbran...)....? You are talking cachu.... Penddu - Just as a matter of interest, what does 'Blaenau' actually mean?
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 20, 2017 13:59:31 GMT
Don't include non-English language except where a large proportion of the population don't speak English, so goodbye to the proposed Welsh names. I give you for example Pontypridd - Welsh name where majority speak English..are you going to rename it Earth Bridge? Or Blaenau Gwent, Rhondda, Merthyr, , Torfaen (ok could rename this Pontypool And Cwmbran...)....? You are talking cachu.... The names you quote are long established and known to us all and there is no competitor better known English version. But there was with Anglesey, Cardigan, Merioneth, etc. And it is of those that we protest. Is was not broken and did not need to be fixed. Would you accept English for all purposes except your posters, literature, count and declaration? For the big picture national recognition there is an English name? But locally you do your own thing.
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 20, 2017 14:00:33 GMT
I give you for example Pontypridd - Welsh name where majority speak English..are you going to rename it Earth Bridge? Or Blaenau Gwent, Rhondda, Merthyr, , Torfaen (ok could rename this Pontypool And Cwmbran...)....? You are talking cachu.... Penddu - Just as a matter of interest, what does 'Blaenau' actually mean? '...at this moment in time...'
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Post by islington on Mar 20, 2017 14:16:59 GMT
Mercy buttercup.
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Post by Penddu on Mar 20, 2017 14:17:32 GMT
I give you for example Pontypridd - Welsh name where majority speak English..are you going to rename it Earth Bridge? Or Blaenau Gwent, Rhondda, Merthyr, , Torfaen (ok could rename this Pontypool And Cwmbran...)....? You are talking cachu.... Penddu - Just as a matter of interest, what does 'Blaenau' actually mean? In this context... upper or higher
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Post by Penddu on Mar 20, 2017 14:20:47 GMT
I give you for example Pontypridd - Welsh name where majority speak English..are you going to rename it Earth Bridge? Or Blaenau Gwent, Rhondda, Merthyr, , Torfaen (ok could rename this Pontypool And Cwmbran...)....? You are talking cachu.... The names you quote are long established and known to us all and there is no competitor better known English version. But there was with Anglesey, Cardigan, Merioneth, etc. And it is of those that we protest. Is was not broken and did not need to be fixed. Would you accept English for all purposes except your posters, literature, count and declaration? For the big picture national recognition there is an English name? But locally you do your own thing. The three places you name are primarily and majority Welsh speaking. Why give them an English name That the residents dont use?
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Post by Penddu on Mar 20, 2017 14:24:52 GMT
The only one name that is proposed that is Welsh but where I could accept the English version is Caerfyrddin....where Welsh speakers typically use the anglicised version Carmarthen...because it is acceptable in Welsh. But personally I would go with the more romantic Myrddin.
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Mar 20, 2017 16:06:09 GMT
I give you for example Pontypridd - Welsh name where majority speak English..are you going to rename it Earth Bridge? Or Blaenau Gwent, Rhondda, Merthyr, , Torfaen (ok could rename this Pontypool And Cwmbran...)....? You are talking cachu.... The names you quote are long established and known to us all and there is no competitor better known English version. But there was with Anglesey, Cardigan, Merioneth, etc. I am content for constituencies in such places to have a 'primary' name in Welsh and an 'alternative' name in English, with the order reversed for seats in Wales where English is the dominant language. What I object to is when names like Ynys Môn, Ceredigion and Meirionydd become the sole name used by officials and the media even when otherwise communicating in English. Other than that I think I agree with all of the points jamie made, and with islington to some extent about compass points (but sometimes I'm more like Khunanup and prefer to avoid them altogether). According to geiriadur.net, 'Blaenau' appears to mean 'forefronts'.
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Post by Lord Twaddleford on Mar 20, 2017 16:25:59 GMT
The names you quote are long established and known to us all and there is no competitor better known English version. But there was with Anglesey, Cardigan, Merioneth, etc. And it is of those that we protest. Is was not broken and did not need to be fixed. Would you accept English for all purposes except your posters, literature, count and declaration? For the big picture national recognition there is an English name? But locally you do your own thing. The three places you name are primarily and majority Welsh speaking. Why give them an English name That the residents dont use? I doubt anyone ever says "Merioneth" any more, "Cardigan" I imagine still gets some use (though not as much as it used to), but I doubt that there's anyone who doesn't use the term "Anglesey" from time to time, even the native Welsh speakers (and as an aside, I understand that Anglesey, whilst still predominantly Welsh, has actually become a bit more anglicised over the past few years; incomers from England realising it's a nice place to live and moving in, no doubt). The names you quote are long established and known to us all and there is no competitor better known English version. But there was with Anglesey, Cardigan, Merioneth, etc. I am content for constituencies in such places to have a 'primary' name in Welsh and an 'alternative' name in English, with the order reversed for seats in Wales where English is the dominant language. What I object to is when names like Ynys Môn, Ceredigion and Meirionydd become the sole name used by officials and the media even when otherwise communicating in English. Other than that I think I agree with all of the points jamie made, and with islington to some extent about compass points (but sometimes I'm more like Khunanup and prefer to avoid them altogether). According to geiriadur.net, 'Blaenau' appears to mean 'forefronts'. As I said, I don't think anyone really uses the term "Merioneth" any more, so there's really little point in reverting back to the term, practically ditto for "Cardigan". Also, they're not exactly difficult words to say. For the record, I actually prefer "Meirionnydd" and "Ceredigion" over their English equivalents. Also, I think another possible meaning for "blaenau" is "tip" or "frontier", but just like in English, there are many words in Welsh that can have different meanings depending on context, and many different words for what's practically the same thing, e.g. the use of the words "cwm", "dyffryn", and "nant" to refer to what in English are effectively valleys, with each word used depending on context; "cwm" I believe translates directly into "valley", "dyffryn" usually means "vale" or "vale of", and "nant" I think on its own means "brook" or something to that effect- people more fluent in Welsh are invited to correct me on any of these, if need be.
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Post by lennon on Mar 20, 2017 17:16:03 GMT
As I said, I don't think anyone really uses the term "Merioneth" any more, so there's really little point in reverting back to the term, practically ditto for "Cardigan". Also, they're not exactly difficult words to say. For the record, I actually prefer "Meirionnydd" and "Ceredigion" over their English equivalents. Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that ydd was pronounced 'eth' or 'ith' - in which case is there really any significant pronunciation difference between "Merioneth" and "Meirionnydd"?
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Post by Lord Twaddleford on Mar 20, 2017 17:30:11 GMT
As I said, I don't think anyone really uses the term "Merioneth" any more, so there's really little point in reverting back to the term, practically ditto for "Cardigan". Also, they're not exactly difficult words to say. For the record, I actually prefer "Meirionnydd" and "Ceredigion" over their English equivalents. Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that ydd was pronounced 'eth' or 'ith' - in which case is there really any significant pronunciation difference between "Merioneth" and "Meirionnydd"? There's very little appreciable difference in the pronunciations of "Merioneth" and "Meirionnydd". The string "-ydd" is pronounced more like "-ith" (like the "th" in "the", "this" & "that", and not in "thing" or "throw"), rendered in the I.P.A. as " ɨð", but any quibbles over the differents in pronunciation is at this point, just nitpicking. There will also be a few differences in the pronunciation of the first syllable, but like I said, nitpicking.
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jamie
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Post by jamie on Mar 20, 2017 19:08:42 GMT
I give you for example Pontypridd - Welsh name where majority speak English..are you going to rename it Earth Bridge? Or Blaenau Gwent, Rhondda, Merthyr, , Torfaen (ok could rename this Pontypool And Cwmbran...)....? You are talking cachu.... "Don't include non-English language except where a large proportion of the population don't speak English, so goodbye to the proposed Welsh names. I would allow for non-English language settlements and counties to be used." As I said, it's fine to name it after places actually in the constituency and I allow for things like counties. Forgot to mention councils are good as well. My problem is when the constituency name just looks a load of gobbledegook to anybody not familiar with the minority language. For example, 'Ynys Mon ac Arfon' would be better named 'Isle of Anglesey and Bangor' as many more people would know where that is. If there was a substantial minority or more that didn't speak English at all, you could have a dual name.
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Post by Penddu on Mar 20, 2017 20:42:40 GMT
Blaenau Gwent....same as Blaenau Morgannwg. The upland bit. Or Upper...
In the case of Iscoed and Uwchcoed this refers to 'below the woods' and 'above the woods' which in this case refers specifically to the the woods or forest of central Gwent known confusingly by its more common English name Wentwood.
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Mar 20, 2017 20:43:05 GMT
My problem is when the constituency name just looks a load of gobbledegook to anybody not familiar with the minority language. For example, 'Ynys Mon ac Arfon' would be better named 'Isle of Anglesey and Bangor' as many more people would know where that is. If there was a substantial minority or more that didn't speak English at all, you could have a dual name. What's wrong with all 29 Welsh constituencies having a dual name?
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Post by Penddu on Mar 20, 2017 20:52:03 GMT
But more generally, place names should reflect the primary language - so Ynys Mon - even if this upsets our monoglot neighbours.
On an international level this is why Mumbai has replaced Bombay, Beijing has replaced Peking..etc.
And why it it really annoys me when BBC newsreaders go out of their way to correctly pronounce the name of some obscure African village..and then stumble over places like Llanelli...
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