Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2016 17:43:24 GMT
Were the mainstream parties 'whipping up' the 'anti-immigration frenzy'? Isn't it more likely that the anti-immigration feeling was caused by huge hordes of illegal immigrants pouring into Europe? Given the scale of the problem wouldn't it have been rather silly of mainstream parties to ignore the issue? On the other hand, you could frame the issue as "large numbers of genuine refugees trying to escape a brutal civil war by coming to Europe", and avoid any hint of whipping up an anti-immigration frenzy. Their motives doesn't matter much in Slovakia where most people simply want to retain an ethnically homogenous nation state and a Catholic country. It is the prospect of multiculturalism that people are against (on top of already having Hungarians and Roma). The only things that could potentially change attitudes would be a credible plan for how to get the refugees repatriated after the civil war(s) so taking them in didn't permanently change the ethnic balance (but that is of course not something any EU or Slovak leader can provide). |
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Mar 7, 2016 17:50:01 GMT
On the other hand, you could frame the issue as "large numbers of genuine refugees trying to escape a brutal civil war by coming to Europe", and avoid any hint of whipping up an anti-immigration frenzy. Their motives doesn't matter much in Slovakia where most people simply want to retain an ethnically homogenous nation state and a Catholic country. It is the prospect of multiculturalism that people are against (on top of already having Hungarians and Roma). The Slovaks think multiculturalism is a bad thing and, at the same time call themselves a Christian country? Given that Christianity is an inherently multicultural religion, that seems somewhat contradictory. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2016 18:14:38 GMT
Their motives doesn't matter much in Slovakia where most people simply want to retain an ethnically homogenous nation state and a Catholic country. It is the prospect of multiculturalism that people are against (on top of already having Hungarians and Roma). The Slovaks think multiculturalism is a bad thing and, at the same time call themselves a Christian country? Given that Christianity is an inherently multicultural religion, that seems somewhat contradictory. Having a particular religion is often a key part of national identity. Being Catholic certainly is in Slovakia. The Catholic church is of course multicultural, but not the Slovak Catholic church. |
|
Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,028
|
Post by Sibboleth on Mar 7, 2016 18:27:41 GMT
As is often the way it isn't really about religion.
|
|
hedgehog
Non-Aligned
Enter your message here...
Posts: 6,826 
|
Post by hedgehog on Mar 7, 2016 20:44:31 GMT
Their motives doesn't matter much in Slovakia where most people simply want to retain an ethnically homogenous nation state and a Catholic country. It is the prospect of multiculturalism that people are against (on top of already having Hungarians and Roma). The Slovaks think multiculturalism is a bad thing and, at the same time call themselves a Christian country? Given that Christianity is an inherently multicultural religion, that seems somewhat contradictory. I don't necessarily equate Christianity with multiculturalism, of course the parable of the Good Samaritan, teaches us to look after strangers as our friends, we should take in those in need. But I havn't found biblical references advocating the multiculturalism that we are supposed to support in the UK, the history of the church hasn't tended to be receptive to multiculturalism. We should be the Good Samaritan, but that doesn't have to mean a dilution of our identity. Imho you can be a Christian but not support multiculturalism. |
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Mar 7, 2016 23:16:47 GMT
Father Tiso's brand of Catholicism was quite definitely Slovak and not Roman.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2016 23:16:49 GMT
After talks with Robert Fico Most-Híd leader Béla Bugár rules out a coalition with Smer saying he wants "a stable right-wing government" (which was also their position during the campaign) + easing up on cooperation with SNS, saying that if they "draw a line" under the Ján Slota era it may be possible.
By now Fico only has one option left: Smer, SNS, #SIET and We are Family, which #SIET are unlikely to accept (and Fico probably doesn't really want). So the question is how long Fico waits until he pass the opportunity to Richard Súlik.
Béla Bugár also says he can accept both Matovič and Sulík as PM.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2016 0:45:37 GMT
Surprisingly SaS paid the least for their votes (but then they won big). #SIET spent the most. There was a campaign cost maximum on 3 million Euro, which only Smer used.  |
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Mar 8, 2016 17:03:24 GMT
On the other hand, you could frame the issue as "large numbers of genuine refugees trying to escape a brutal civil war by coming to Europe", and avoid any hint of whipping up an anti-immigration frenzy. I could frame it like that but then it wouldn't be true. A very large proportion of then, possibly the great majority are not from Syria at all. They are liars from countries as far afield as Afganistan and North Africa who are pretending to be Syrian. Secondly no one is entering Europe to escape a brutal civil war. They are entering the first safe country they reach to escape a brutal civil war. That would be Turkey. It boils down to a simple conflict of interests. It is in the interests of a great many people living in various middle eastern and north African crapholes like Egypt, Lybia, Afganistan, Iraq etc to move to Europe, that's why they're moving to Europe. They don't want to leave one craphole just to settle in a slightly better craphole like Turkey, they're economic migrants not genuine refugees. On the other hand It is against the interests of people living in Europe to have huge numbers of people from those parts of the world start living there. Its not unreasonable for voters to expect politicians to prioritise the interests of their own countries citizens over the interests of economic migrants. I think the key difference between our views of the refugees is that you view them as a faceless mass coming here to steal our jobs, and I view them as a group of ordinary people who are trying to deal with incredibly horrible situations (the second biggest country people are escaping from is Eritrea, where the government is a massively repressive dictatorship). |
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Mar 8, 2016 17:14:16 GMT
The Slovaks think multiculturalism is a bad thing and, at the same time call themselves a Christian country? Given that Christianity is an inherently multicultural religion, that seems somewhat contradictory. I don't necessarily equate Christianity with multiculturalism, of course the parable of the Good Samaritan, teaches us to look after strangers as our friends, we should take in those in need. But I havn't found biblical references advocating the multiculturalism that we are supposed to support in the UK, the history of the church hasn't tended to be receptive to multiculturalism. We should be the Good Samaritan, but that doesn't have to mean a dilution of our identity. Imho you can be a Christian but not support multiculturalism. The New Testament is stuffed full of multiculturalism (unsurprising, given the multicultural nature of the Roman cities in which it was written). It gets explicitly stated in verses like Galations 3:28 (There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus). Several of the epistles have, as a major theme, the issue of dealing with a multicultural church consisting of both Jews and Greeks. It's also there in things like the parable of the good samaritan (whose moral, if read in context, is that we are to love the people who we regard as our enemies as we love ourselves). And, of course, the vision of heaven given in Revelation includes a massive crowd of people from every nation, tribe, and language praising God together. These different groups aren't stuck in unconnected ghettos, but nor have they lost their distinctiveness - that's multiculturalism in a nutshell. Yes, Christians throughout history have failed to live up to it, but multiculturalism is blatantly there in the Bible. |
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Mar 8, 2016 17:36:59 GMT
I would be grateful if you would refrain in future from accusing me of dehumanising economic migrants when I have done the exact opposite. Please explain to me how describing the refugees as " huge hordes of illegal immigrants pouring into Europe" is in any way humanising them. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2016 17:42:26 GMT
As is often the way it isn't really about religion. Not the actual teachings of religion, but the norms, rituals, ceremonies, and cultural expressions connected to religion as part of a specific national culture. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2016 18:40:14 GMT
Andrej Danko (SNS) dismiss that his party has discussed going into government with Most-Híd and describes the differences between the parties as "historically insurmountable". Also denies that he is negotiating with SaS on forming a coalition of SaS, OĽaNO-Nova, SNS, Most-Híd, We are Family and #Network.
"SNS will talk only with those who receive a mandate to form a government".
Danko says that even if he has nothing against any nationality, religion or race, disagreements would arise on the issues of autonomy of Hungarian education and double citizenship. Though he only rules out negotiations with Kotleba – People's Party Our Slovakia, which he ironically wants banned as xenophobic and racist and in violation of the Constitution (but always nice to get rid of the competition..).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2016 19:13:12 GMT
#SIET leader Radoslav Procházka says he isn't negotiating with Fico and "could imagine a broad centre-right government and the participation of the SNS". Not sure why Fico hasn't given up yet, because Smer + SNS + We are Family only gets him to 75 and he has ruled out the Fascists. But he may be banking on getting on "purchasing" a defector (could be a Fascist joining SNS, even if the two Nationalist parties hate each other). Or maybe he will give up tomorrow.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2016 20:40:43 GMT
A recap of todays negotiations:
Ficos first preference was Smer and SNS + the two centrist parties Most-Hid and #SIET, which would have had 85 seats behind it, but since #SIET with 10 seats refused to even negotiate this option quickly disappeared.
His second option was Smer-SNS-Most-Hid in combination with the populists in We are Family, which would have had 86 behind it, but Kollár turned down the offer, again leaving just 75.
Third option was a broad coalition of Smer and the two socially liberal right wing parties Most-Hid-SaS with a right wing PM (according to commentators in order to break Sulik's SaS, but the SaS leadership wasn't stupid enough to go for it and maintained that a coalition with Smer was a no go under any circumstances.
So Fico is de facto finished, since only SNS wants to negotiate with him and he should just turn in his credentials and let Sulík try, but may pretend to negotiate for a couple of days more to safe face.
Sulík is said still to be going for a broad coalition with SaS-OĽaNO-NOVA + SNS and the centrists in #SIET and Most-Híd = 76, with outside support from Kóllar making it 87 all in all. The key player to either support or block this is Béla Bugár and without his Most-Híd, the government only has 76 MPs behind it, which is "not only risky, but madness" to quote a Slovak commentator.
The main problem is that Belá Bugár cooperation with SNS put him at risk of having Most-Hid devoured by MKP, but Bugár also has a strained relationship with OĽaNO boss Matovic, who campaigned against Most-Hid and in favor of ideologically closer Christian Democrats in MKP, as well as Sulík, who deliberately cut into the socially liberal part of Most-Hids electorate. Most-Hid has attracted socially liberal Slovak voters, but SaS got most of them this time.
The fact that Bugár has a personal problem with both Matovič and Sulík might block a cooperation with SaS and OĽaNO-NOVA. Unless Daniel Lipšic from NOVA becomes an option.
Analysts think Bugár wanted to use his stated wish of a broad centre-right government to get a power sharing deal with Fico (with himself as PM either now or in two years). His problem is that Fico is weaker than expected and Sulík with Matovic stronger. Bugár is also not in a position to demand leading a centre-right coalition since he can not provide an alternative majority with Smer. So hard to predict what he will do now.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pete Whitehead on Mar 8, 2016 22:56:30 GMT
I could frame it like that but then it wouldn't be true. A very large proportion of then, possibly the great majority are not from Syria at all. They are liars from countries as far afield as Afganistan and North Africa who are pretending to be Syrian. Secondly no one is entering Europe to escape a brutal civil war. They are entering the first safe country they reach to escape a brutal civil war. That would be Turkey. It boils down to a simple conflict of interests. It is in the interests of a great many people living in various middle eastern and north African crapholes like Egypt, Lybia, Afganistan, Iraq etc to move to Europe, that's why they're moving to Europe. They don't want to leave one craphole just to settle in a slightly better craphole like Turkey, they're economic migrants not genuine refugees. On the other hand It is against the interests of people living in Europe to have huge numbers of people from those parts of the world start living there. Its not unreasonable for voters to expect politicians to prioritise the interests of their own countries citizens over the interests of economic migrants. I think the key difference between our views of the refugees is that you view them as a faceless mass coming here to steal our jobs, and I view them as a group of ordinary people who are trying to deal with incredibly horrible situations (the second biggest country people are escaping from is Eritrea, where the government is a massively repressive dictatorship). I understand most of those escaping from Eritrea are doing so to evade conscription. 100 years ago last week this country introduced conscription. Its as well for us that those subject to it didn't flee en masse to some other country to seek 'asylum' |
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Mar 8, 2016 23:47:28 GMT
I think the key difference between our views of the refugees is that you view them as a faceless mass coming here to steal our jobs, and I view them as a group of ordinary people who are trying to deal with incredibly horrible situations (the second biggest country people are escaping from is Eritrea, where the government is a massively repressive dictatorship). I understand most of those escaping from Eritrea are doing so to evade conscription. 100 years ago last week this country introduced conscription. Its as well for us that those subject to it didn't flee en masse to some other country to seek 'asylum' We introduced conscription because we were fighting the biggest war in our history, and we supplied the conscript soldiers with the necessities. Eritrea has conscription because a paranoid regime claims that they might possibly be attacked by their neighbour. Conscription in Eritrea is, essentially, a life sentence, and many conscripts are essentially forced to live below subsistence level. The two are not comparable, and it is rather offensive to suggest that they are. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2016 15:37:50 GMT
Smer MP and Mayor of Zilina Igor Choma has gotten into himself into a media storm after he complained on facebook that voters had "deselected decent people" and filled the National Council with "liars, thieves, racketeers, swindlers, eavesdropping scum, snuff, fascists, mafia, lawbreakers, gays and former prostitutes". Not too sure about the gays, but the rest sounds broadly correct.  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2016 15:39:20 GMT
Boris Kóllar now accuses "oligarchs close to Smer, who not want a right-wing government to be formed" of trying to buy his MPs (for 2 mio. Euro a piece) and blackmail him into supporting a Smer government.
Allegedly they threatened to publish documents with evidence Kollár was involved in heroin trafficking back in 1990 (which Kóllar of course says is "a complete lie")
"They literally blackmailed me through fictitious 25-30 year old intelligence reports" Kollar said at today's press conference. "These are their practices. They made me (look like) a terrorist and then they will try to dismantle my party."
He restates that his party will only support a right-wing government without Smer.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2016 15:41:02 GMT
Since Smer has partly melted together with the state apparatus and cartels of businessmen the above isn't quite as cooky as it sounds (though most likely made up or grossly exaggerated). Buying MPs from other parties would be the only way to get a majority by now. Some business interests must fear what will happen with the administration, judiciary etc. post-Smer.
Fico has a mandate to negotiate until March 18, and seems intent on using it. #SIET changed their mind and had talks with him today (Smer/SNS/#SIET is 74, so could work if they buy a handful of extra MPs). Still, if #SIET is the only centre-right party in such a coalition they would be punished at the next election, but they may be for sale (the whole #SIET project was about rebranding, personal promotion and careerism so probably not the most ethical types).
Fico has also talked once more with Most-Híd, so too early to write him off. Slovakia doesn't have Balkan level of corruption, but obviously not a "clean" political culture either, so that will influence things.
It seems Fico "has" SNS (for the time being), while SaS/OĽaNO-NOVA have support from Kóllar and the two centrist parties are playing hard to get, while trying to increase their price. Too naive to take their statements at face value. Still, whoever goes with Smer/SNS will be punished by the voters, so there needs to be some kind of sizable personal gain (power, contracts, money). And I still think a broad centre-right/right coalition is most likely.
|
|
