Swedish General Election 2015

[Deleted]

Gives the SD the chance to play "they are all the same" card. The only party that would of gained from an early election was going to be the SD's.

[Devil Wincarnate]

Dec 27, 2014 20:20:01 GMT @barctom said:

Gives the SD the chance to play "they are all the same" card. The only party that would of gained from an early election was going to be the SD's.

I don't disagree with that.  However, I wonder whether the SDs maintain themselves to the next election.  Or indeed if the KDS can hold out in the face of the SD challenge from the right.

It's a result above all for the Social Democrats, the Moderates, LPP and Centre.  The former retain power having compromised, which is a perfectly legitimate way to hold on.  The Moderates have shown a bit of steel and have got their way.  The LPP and Centre might well show that they could work with the SoDems in future, and might be able to regather the mushy centrist voters they once had who backed the SoDems last time out.

The real losers to my mind are the Greens- I can see a fair few tipping into the simon-pure embrace of the Left Party.

[Merseymike]

Similar then to the way the major parties in Austria reacted to Haider initially.

[Devil Wincarnate]

Dec 28, 2014 10:40:51 GMT Merseymike said:

Similar then to the way the major parties in Austria reacted to Haider initially.

Haider was a strange beast.  Fairly disturbing as he and his chums were, it has to be seen in the context of a) a long-standing political party being torn apart and hijacked and b) vast public anger with a clearly corrupt system.  In the case of the latter point, the SDs won't have that to feed on in the long-term.

[Merseymike]

Dec 28, 2014 11:16:23 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

Dec 28, 2014 10:40:51 GMT Merseymike said:

Similar then to the way the major parties in Austria reacted to Haider initially.

Haider was a strange beast.  Fairly disturbing as he and his chums were, it has to be seen in the context of a) a long-standing political party being torn apart and hijacked and b) vast public anger with a clearly corrupt system.  In the case of the latter point, the SDs won't have that to feed on in the long-term.

True. Also Austria had grand coalitions for a number of years pre-Haider. Not so in Sweden. Also the Sweden tradition is to enable citizenship. The recent arrivals won't be voting SD.

[Devonian]

Dec 27, 2014 20:20:01 GMT @barctom said:

Gives the SD the chance to play "they are all the same" card. 

Exactly, and would they be wrong?

The acting party leader of the Sweden Democrats has hit out at Social Democrat Prime Minister Stefan Löfven and the centre-right Alliance parties for backing out of next year's planned election, and stated that his nationalist party is now the main opposition as a result.[...]

Karlsson [...] added: "The Alliance has practically given up its role as the opposition. With that the Sweden Democrats are now the leading opposition party."

He continued: "It is clear that they are attacking us. Now there are six parties in government and one opposition party."

www.thelocal.se/20141227/sweden-democrats-blast-election-u-turn

[Merseymike]

Certainly the Swedish right is traditionally very moderate and centrist - the names give that away! Moderate, Centre, Christian Democrat and Liberal!

So they do have more in common with the Social Democrats than the Sweden Democrats.

I think it is a good idea to keep pariah parties out of government.

[Devonian]

Dec 28, 2014 15:31:01 GMT Merseymike said:

Certainly the Swedish right is traditionally very moderate and centrist - the names give that away! Moderate, Centre, Christian Democrat and Liberal!

So they do have more in common with the Social Democrats than the Sweden Democrats.

I think it is a good idea to keep pariah parties out of government.

The 'pariah' party being the party that actually opposes the government as opposed to the 'opposition' Alliance parties that have agreed to a supply and confidence deal with the government rather than face in electorate in an election where the polls indicated they could do rather badly.

I'm not sure that you're actually disagreeing with Karlsson's point when he says "The Alliance has practically given up its role as the opposition. With that the Sweden Democrats are now the leading opposition party [...] Now there are six parties in government and one opposition party.
" Obviously you disagree with him in so far as you think its a good thing rather than a bad thing but you're not saying anything in that statement is factually incorrect.

@barctom is right that this gives the SD the chance to play the 'they're all the same card' only its obviously not just a card, its a statement of fact.

[Sibboleth]

Spare us the propaganda.

[Devonian]

Dec 28, 2014 17:16:38 GMT Sibboleth said:

Spare us the propaganda.

What propaganda? The Alliance and government have done a supply and confidence deal. That's not some propaganda point, they went on TV and admitted it. Incidentally the agreement is due to last until 2022 meaning that they've all agreed that whoever forms the government after the 2018 will get supply and confidence from the other parties in the agreement.

You might think its a good thing that the Alliance has agreed to stop being the opposition to the Red/Greens and that the Red/Greens have agreed to not be an opposition to any Alliance government formed after 2018 but you can hardly disagree that the deal has been done.

[Richard Allen]

Dec 28, 2014 17:16:38 GMT Sibboleth said:

Spare us the propaganda.

I find it quite sad that so many UKIP members and supporters have become so supportive of the Sweden Democrats and other similar parties throughout Europe.

[Devonian]

This is what the SDs have said

Idag presenterade regeringen och Alliansen sin överenskommelse för att kunna fortsätta regera Sverige trots att inget av alternativen har folkets stöd. Överenskommelsen går ut på att den som är i opposition inte längre ska stödja sin egen budget. Mattias Karlsson kommenterar:

– Alliansen kommer att fortsätta prata för sin egen politik och ställa löften till väljarna. Men när det väl blir skarpt läge i riksdagen kommer de inte längre att rösta för sin egen politik. I praktiken har Alliansen därmed slutat att fungera som opposition. Sverige styrs numer av en sexklöver med stöd av Vänsterpartiet. Det enda oppositionspartiet heter Sverigedemokraterna.

sverigedemokraterna.se/sd-vacker-misstroendeforklaring/

which comes out of Google Translate as

Today, the Government presented and the Alliance of their agreement to continue the reign Sweden despite the fact that none of the options supported by the people. It was agreed that those who are in opposition no longer support its own budget. Mattias Karlsson comments:

- The Alliance will continue to talk to their own policy and make promises to the voters. But once it gets real situation in parliament, they will no longer vote for their own policies. In practice, the Alliance thus stopped working as opposition. Sweden is governed nowadays by a six clover with the support of the Left Party. The only opposition party called the Sweden Democrats.

Perhaps Merseymike Sibboleth or anyone else could point out what is incorrect about this statement.

[maxque]

Dec 28, 2014 17:51:39 GMT Richard Allen said:

Dec 28, 2014 17:16:38 GMT Sibboleth said:

Spare us the propaganda.

I find it quite sad that so many UKIP members and supporters have become so supportive of the Sweden Democrats and other similar parties throughout Europe.

I don't see how it's surprising. It's not libertarian or something like that anymore. It's populist and nationalist, with members supporting unsavory elements across Europe.

[Richard Allen]

Dec 28, 2014 18:30:03 GMT maxque said:

Dec 28, 2014 17:51:39 GMT Richard Allen said:

I find it quite sad that so many UKIP members and supporters have become so supportive of the Sweden Democrats and other similar parties throughout Europe.

I don't see how it's surprising. It's not libertarian or something like that anymore. It's populist and nationalist, with members supporting unsavory elements across Europe.

I said it was sad, not surprising. I don't think the grass roots of UKIP were ever truly libertarian but for many years they were deeply suspicious about allying with other parties in Europe, especially ones that could be categorised as far right. I was always bitterly opposed to UKIP joining parliamentary groups with such parties and what has happened recently only confirms to me that I was right.

[Devonian]

Dec 28, 2014 21:32:09 GMT Richard Allen said:

Dec 28, 2014 18:30:03 GMT maxque said:

I don't see how it's surprising. It's not libertarian or something like that anymore. It's populist and nationalist, with members supporting unsavory elements across Europe.

I said it was sad, not surprising. I don't think the grass roots of UKIP were ever truly libertarian but for many years they were deeply suspicious about allying with other parties in Europe, especially ones that could be categorised as far right. I was always bitterly opposed to UKIP joining parliamentary groups with such parties and what has happened recently only confirms to me that I was right.

Out of interest Richard is there any political party on the continent (or in the rest of the world for that matter) that you wouldn't mind UKIP allying with? Perhaps to ask the question another way is there any political party in the world that you would be happy to join yourself if you were a citizen of the country in question?

[Richard Allen]

Dec 28, 2014 22:37:03 GMT Devonian said:

Dec 28, 2014 21:32:09 GMT Richard Allen said:

I said it was sad, not surprising. I don't think the grass roots of UKIP were ever truly libertarian but for many years they were deeply suspicious about allying with other parties in Europe, especially ones that could be categorised as far right. I was always bitterly opposed to UKIP joining parliamentary groups with such parties and what has happened recently only confirms to me that I was right.

Out of interest Richard is there any political party on the continent (or in the rest of the world for that matter) that you wouldn't mind UKIP allying with? Perhaps to ask the question another way is there any political party in the world that you would be happy to join yourself if you were a citizen of the country in question?

I cannot answer your question completely because I do not follow the ins and outs of politics in most European countries. My interest in foreign elections lies primarily in the Anglo-sphere, particularly the US, although Germany is an exception. I opposed UKIP's membership of a European Parliamentary group, or indeed or pan-European political party, as a matter of principle regardless of who was in it. My opposition to such alliances was made greater by the nature of some of the parties UKIP allied themselves with.

[Devil Wincarnate]

I do follow European politics more closely than Anglosphere politics, and I can't think of a party on the Continent that obviously fits Richard's views.  Maybe if Sabine Herold's gang had ever managed to make a breakthrough, or if Alain Madelin had had some real effect?

[Devonian]

Dec 29, 2014 0:11:39 GMT Richard Allen said:

Dec 28, 2014 22:37:03 GMT Devonian said:

Out of interest Richard is there any political party on the continent (or in the rest of the world for that matter) that you wouldn't mind UKIP allying with? Perhaps to ask the question another way is there any political party in the world that you would be happy to join yourself if you were a citizen of the country in question?

I cannot answer your question completely because I do not follow the ins and outs of politics in most European countries. My interest in foreign elections lies primarily in the Anglo-sphere, particularly the US, although Germany is an exception.

Out of curiosity how would you vote if you were living in the Anglo-Sphere nations?

[Richard Allen]

Dec 30, 2014 19:21:47 GMT Devonian said:

Dec 29, 2014 0:11:39 GMT Richard Allen said:

I cannot answer your question completely because I do not follow the ins and outs of politics in most European countries. My interest in foreign elections lies primarily in the Anglo-sphere, particularly the US, although Germany is an exception.

Out of curiosity how would you vote if you were living in the Anglo-Sphere nations?

Without actually living in those places I can't really be sure but without the overwhelming issue of the EU to affect my choice I would probably be inclined towards the main centre right parties (Liberal in Australia, National in NZ, Conservatives in Canada) although with some disagreements in all cases. In the US I would lean towards the GOP but could vary a lot depending on candidates. I have little time for the more stupid elements of the GOP and there are more than a few conservative Democrats who I could easily support.

[Devil Wincarnate]

Without wanting to sound sycophantic, Richard Allen has some of the most intriguing views on this board.  I wouldn't vote for an Allenist party most likely, and I suspect he'd loathe an organisation with my soppy centrist take, but his intellectual rigour and consistency is worthy of great deal of respect.