Beaufort poll on powers for the National Assembly.

[cibwr]

commissionondevolutioninwales.independent.gov.uk/2013/08/13/beaufort-poll-shows-support-for-national-assembly-for-wales-and-further-powers-continues-to-grow/

Sample size 2009.

The survey found:

62% of the respondents would like to see increased powers for the NafW (including the 9% in favour of independence), with 24% in favour of the status quo;

Eight in ten people trusted the NafW to act in Wales’s best interests;

A majority believed that the existence of the NafW had given Wales a stronger voice in the United Kingdom;

The Welsh public were as likely to believe that the NafW had the most influence over Wales as they were the UK Parliament;

There is a relatively high awareness of whether current powers lie at UK Parliament or National Assembly level;

Among those desiring further powers, a majority (around two-thirds) want this within the next 5 years or beyond rather than in the next year or so.

With reference to specific powers and where these should lie, the survey showed the following:

Asked about six areas currently controlled by the NafW, a majority of the Welsh population believed these powers should be retained by the NAfW. Support for the current arrangements was strongest for tourism, housing, agriculture and roads. For education and health, a majority favoured retention but a significant minority (20% and 27% respectively) wanted these powers returned to the UK Parliament;

Asked about six areas currently the responsibility of the UK Parliament, there was considerable variation in the proportions wanting transfer of responsibility from the UK Parliament to the NAfW. Renewable energy, including large windfarms, (70%), policing (63%) and broadcasting and media regulation (58%) were most favoured for transfer to the NafW;

The Welsh public believed the UK Parliament should retain responsibility for defence and foreign affairs (82%) and the courts and criminal justice system (63%). The welfare and benefit system appeared to be an area where the Welsh public were most undecided about who should have control.


Unfortunately the website doesn't have a link to the full survey. I gather support for welfare being transferred to the National Assembly is about 52%


One surprise is the lack of support for the courts and criminal justice system to be devolved. As Welsh law diverges from English law most in the legal profession think that the creation of a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction is inevitable and desirable - so the administration of the legal system and criminal justice would naturally follow.

[cibwr]

mmmmm well they are partly are with housing benefit devolved minus the full cash to pay for it. I suspect that is the way that these things would go if they were devolved.

[libfozzy]

Devolution to that level would probably force a review of the Barnett Formula though..... And as for the Devolution of Courts etc, most probably just haven't thought about it at that level tbh.

[Deleted]

How is Welsh law departing from English law then?

[cibwr]

How does Scottish Law differ from English Law, answer two legislatures and governments producing secondary and primary legislation - at present relatively little change but its cumulative and growing.

Interestingly the Supreme Court spent the best part of two days learning about the current devolution settlement when looking at the last Welsh law referred to it - suggesting that the legal establishment really is not up to speed, again suggesting that a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction is inevitable.

[Tony Otim]

Aug 15, 2013 10:17:50 GMT cibwr said:

How does Scottish Law differ from English Law, answer two legislatures and governments producing secondary and primary legislation - .

The Scots legal system and Scots law has been different from English and Welsh law since long before devolution. IN fact, I'm not sure it's ever been the same, so I'm not sure that's your best argument there...

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 10:17:50 GMT cibwr said:

How does Scottish Law differ from English Law, answer two legislatures and governments producing secondary and primary legislation - at present relatively little change but its cumulative and growing.

Interestingly the Supreme Court spent the best part of two days learning about the current devolution settlement when looking at the last Welsh law referred to it - suggesting that the legal establishment really is not up to speed, again suggesting that a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction is inevitable.

I could be entirely wrong but the Scottish legal system has retained it's separate identity since the Act of union whereas Welsh "law" was subsumed and effectively removed as English law has held sway. As a ward of court many years ago I remember having to gain a courts permission to go and visit family in Scotland (!), which tickled me pink.

As the legal circuits are conjoined there will have to be full separation would there not before the "inevitability" of a separate Welsh jurisdiction.

[cibwr]

Actually there is now a Welsh legal circuit - it was decoupled from Chester some time ago. So its effectively self contained now. And the point I was making that even after 300 years of union Scotland has maintained a separate legal jurisdiction (indeed its part of the treaty obligations) - and legislation for Scotland remained distinct while there was no separate Scottish legislature.

The creation of a Welsh legal jurisdiction was raised in the 1920s and rejected because Wales lacked a legislature, now it has one and Welsh law will diverge from English law, increasingly so, so the pressure for a separate jurisdiction grows. The Silk Commission is looking at the devolution settlement and most of the evidence presented to them would suggest that Wales should move to a reserved model of devolution, as in Scotland and Northern Ireland rather than the Conferred model of devolution. That would increase the pressure for a separate legal jurisdiction - as has been said

"If the Assembly had the same general power to legislate as the Scottish Parliament then the
consequences for the unity of the England and Wales legal jurisdiction would be considerable. The
courts would, as time went by, be increasingly called upon to apply fundamentally different basic
principles of law and rules of law of general application which were different in Wales from those
which applied in England. The practical consequence would be the need for different systems of legal
education, different sets of judges and lawyers and different courts. England and Wales would become
separate legal jurisdictions"

www.cardiff.ac.uk/europ/resources/WGC/Jurisdiction%20paper%20-%20ET%20and%20DW%20Feb12.pdf

A Welsh legal jurisdiction is subject to some debate, perhaps this would be better as another topic...

[john07]

Aug 15, 2013 12:17:46 GMT Tony Otim said:

Aug 15, 2013 10:17:50 GMT cibwr said:

How does Scottish Law differ from English Law, answer two legislatures and governments producing secondary and primary legislation - .

The Scots legal system and Scots law has been different from English and Welsh law since long before devolution. IN fact, I'm not sure it's ever been the same, so I'm not sure that's your best argument there...

The two legal systems have always been separate and come from different roots.

Scots Law is based on Roman Law and is closer to the Civic Law system used throughout continental Europe (and South America). English Law (like that used in USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, etc.) is based on Common Law (decisions of judges over time) and is not codified.

Obviously some elements of English Law have been absorbed into Scots Law over the years. The Supreme Court (previously the House of Lords) is the final court of appeal for Scotland. Similar co-habitation between legal systems exists in South Africa.

[cibwr]

However Northern Irish Law is based on the same common law as that of England and they form a separate legal jurisdiction.

The legal profession in Wales believes its an inevitability that Wales and England will become separate jurisdictions - The Welsh Government seems to think that its desirable, the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru do, evidence to the Silk commission seems heavily in favour. Can you find arguments to say that eventually there shouldn't be separate jurisdictions and that given that the legal profession seems to think its an inevitability and desirable why should planning on setting up separate jurisdictions not start now?

[Sibboleth]

Of course they favour it as it would presumably be in their interests. I've no particular opinion either way, mind.

[cibwr]

As a matter of utility it would be better for Welsh laws to be tried in courts that were conversant with Welsh law, thus a Welsh jurisdiction is desirable. Its a scandal that the Supreme Court does not have a single Welsh judge on it and the recent case where it had to decide whether the first Law passed by the National Assembly was within or outwith its powers had the first two days dominated by, in effect, a seminar bringing the justices up to speed with the current constitutional settlement (involving the senior legal people from Wales and Northern Ireland).

[john07]

Aug 24, 2013 19:40:17 GMT cibwr said:

As a matter of utility it would be better for Welsh laws to be tried in courts that were conversant with Welsh law, thus a Welsh jurisdiction is desirable. Its a scandal that the Supreme Court does not have a single Welsh judge on it and the recent case where it had to decide whether the first Law passed by the National Assembly was within or outwith its powers had the first two days dominated by, in effect, a seminar bringing the justices up to speed with the current constitutional settlement (involving the senior legal people from Wales and Northern Ireland).

Please tell me how 'Welsh Law' differs from 'English Law'?

[Davıd Boothroyd]

The National Assembly does have primary lawmaking powers and there is a small body of six 'Acts of the National Assembly for Wales' which can be seen here: www.legislation.gov.uk/anaw

One Bill which has been passed by the Assembly has not yet received Royal Assent because it has been referred to the Supreme Court over concerns that it exceeds the Assembly's competence. It is the Agricultural Sector (Wales) Bill

[cibwr]

You know that the corpus of law goes far beyond those six acts, there are various measures and the body of secondary legislation, which runs into hundreds, yes at present its not a huge amount but it is diverging and as time goes on will be more distinct.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Secondary legislation is, well, secondary. Passing different statutory instruments for Wales and Monmouthshire, and then for Wales, has been happening for decades prior to 1999; it's generally accepted that secondary legislation can sometimes apply to some parts of the country and not others, so that was the preferred way of allowing the National Assembly to govern. When you talk of courts conversant with Welsh law that does imply a fundamentally different jurisprudence which is entirely absent.

[greatkingrat]

So how much will it cost to create a whole new branch of the judiciary?

[cibwr]

Aug 27, 2013 8:24:07 GMT greatkingrat said:

So how much will it cost to create a whole new branch of the judiciary?

Well the judges exist already - its a case of giving one a pay rise and making that person the chief justice... other than that the costs aren't substantial - its a case of a fairly minor reorganization.

[cibwr]

Aug 27, 2013 8:08:43 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

Secondary legislation is, well, secondary. Passing different statutory instruments for Wales and Monmouthshire, and then for Wales, has been happening for decades prior to 1999; it's generally accepted that secondary legislation can sometimes apply to some parts of the country and not others, so that was the preferred way of allowing the National Assembly to govern. When you talk of courts conversant with Welsh law that does imply a fundamentally different jurisprudence which is entirely absent.

However much of the judiciary in Wales seems to think that it would be a good idea - the laws will diverge and as that divergence grows so does the need for people who actually know the law....

[East Anglian Lefty]

Aug 15, 2013 10:17:50 GMT cibwr said:

Interestingly the Supreme Court spent the best part of two days learning about the current devolution settlement when looking at the last Welsh law referred to it - suggesting that the legal establishment really is not up to speed, again suggesting that a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction is inevitable.

This would actually seem to argue against the need for a separate Welsh legal jurisdiction - as only a small proportion of cases concerning particular Welsh law will go before the Supreme Court and as it only takes a couple of days to get them up to speed, the present system is not obviously unfit for purpose.