Beaufort poll on powers for the National Assembly.

[cibwr]

Its not the supreme court that we are talking about here, it is the rest of the system - courts of appeal etc. Try reading the arguments I have posted from others and see what conclusions you come to.

[Penddu]

At the moment the body of Welsh Law is almost the same as English Law - maybe 99.5% the same. But the fact that Wales now has Primary lawmaking powers means that these bodies will progressively diverge over time. Wales will eventually need and become a separate jurisdiction. The only question is when.

[cibwr]

Which is the norm in the rest of the world, the USA is 50 separate legal jurisdictions, the UK 3.

[Sibboleth]

There are more pressing matters than further feather-bedding already rather well feather-bedded professionals, however...

[cibwr]

Aug 29, 2013 17:41:46 GMT Sibboleth said:

There are more pressing matters than further feather-bedding already rather well feather-bedded professionals, however...

Of course there are, perhaps for efficiency we should abolish the English and Welsh legal jurisdiction and merge it with the Danish one... after all if the supreme court can grasp the essentials in two days then I am sure the Danish courts can....

But seriously it may not be an urgent matter but it will become increasingly so and we should at least start planning for it.

[Deleted]

Aug 29, 2013 18:25:12 GMT cibwr said:

Aug 29, 2013 17:41:46 GMT Sibboleth said:

There are more pressing matters than further feather-bedding already rather well feather-bedded professionals, however...

Of course there are, perhaps for efficiency we should abolish the English and Welsh legal jurisdiction and merge it with the Danish one... after all if the supreme court can grasp the essentials in two days then I am sure the Danish courts can....

But seriously it may not be an urgent matter but it will become increasingly so and we should at least start planning for it.

How different are thw English and Danish systems of law, and how different are their legislation, and how different are the English and Welsh systems of law, and th actual laws?

[john07]

The point is that English and Scots Law are fundamentally different the former stemming from Common Law and the latter Roman Law. English Law and 'Welsh Law' will be essentially from the same source with minor legislating differences.

The situation in the USA is rather similar but with each state having its own legal system from the outset. For example Louisiana Law is based on the Code Napoleon (derived from Roman Law) whereas most other states have a legal system based on Common Law.

I am sure that many in the Welsh legal establishment would like to see a new tier of bureaucracy added with new 'jobs for the boys' but I cannot see the justification for this. Maybe come back in 20 years when the legislative function of the Assembly has had time to make a difference.

[cibwr]

All the states with the exception of Louisiana are based on common law, and all have remarkably similar laws, yet each forms a separate legal jurisdiction. If Wales moves from a conferred model of devolution to a reserved model of devolution then the process will accelerate. Remember also that the body of law includes secondary legislation and that the powers of the executive are far more extensive than that of the legislature, covering far more items, so really you do need to start looking at a separate Welsh jurisdiction to cope with the differences that are growing daily. Or do you think a court in say Derby is competent to take a Welsh case? Which could potentially happen.

[East Anglian Lefty]

Aug 30, 2013 20:53:26 GMT cibwr said:

All the states with the exception of Louisiana are based on common law, and all have remarkably similar laws, yet each forms a separate legal jurisdiction.

Because they have a federal system. We don't.

[cibwr]

Yet Scotland and Northern Ireland - which is a common law jurisdiction - are both separate legal jurisdictions. If Wales moves to a reserved powers model of devolution then it is almost inevitable that it becomes a separate legal jurisdiction and it would be very much preferable if it was.

We have a quasi federal system, just because it formally isn't doesn't mean that we are a purely unitary state.


Nearly all the evidence I have seen presented to the Silk Commission favours a separate legal jurisdiction or see it as a logical consequence of moving from conferred to reserved models of devolution.

[erlend]

We were never a purely unitary state even pre political devoution. We have long/always had administrative devolution.

[cibwr]

And we are not a purely unitary state now, can you give me a justification of why Northern Ireland should be a separate legal jurisdiction and Wales should not be, especially if it moves to a reserved model of devolution?

[erlend]

Cibwr I was basically endorsing your historic point. As for your main point re jurisdictions I will leave that to people who understand law. Which to touch on a different subject is why it is actually logical to have a serious percent of MPs being lawyers. Probably fewer than now though.

[cibwr]

My apologies, it will be interesting to see what Silk recommends, the Richard Commission favoured moving to a reserved powers model and that is gathering dust, the tories seem luke warm on part 1 of the commission's report on taxation, we will have to see if part two goes as far as most of the submissions want.