Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,025
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Post by Sibboleth on Aug 13, 2013 18:41:34 GMT
They should have run Stonehouse for his old seat.
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Post by mick745 on Aug 13, 2013 18:55:12 GMT
Does anyone know how to edit Wikipedia? On the page 'Former MPs making a comeback at a general election' there are several entries missing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election_records#Former_MPs_making_a_comeback_at_a_general_electionThe retreads are as follows: 2010 (5): John Cryer, Geraint Davies, Jonathan Evans, Christopher Leslie and Stephen Twigg. 2005 (4): David Evennett, William McCrea, Malcolm Rifkind, Christopher Fraser. 2001 (7): Henry Bellingham, Alistair Burt, Derek Conway, Charles Hendry, Greg Knight, Andrew Mitchell, Bob Spink. 1997 (17): Mike Hancock, Ashok Kumar, Huw Edwards, Sylvia Heal, John Smith, Francis Maude, Ronnie Fearn, Christopher Chope, Alan Clark, John Maples, Michael Fallon, Humfrey Malins, Gerald Howarth, Jonathan Sayeed, Richard Livsey, Gerry Adams, Frank Doran. 1992 (13): Gerry Malone, Warren Hawksley, Michael Ancram, Derek Spencer, Piers Merchant, Mark Robinson, Richard Ottaway, Nick Raynsford, Iain Sprout, John Horam, John Spellar, Bryan Davies, Paul Tyler. 1987 (9): Ann Taylor, Joan Lestor, Bob Cryer, Jim Marshall, John Garrett, Andrew Welsh, Audrey Wise, Margaret Ewing, Bruce Grocott. 1983 (7): Max Madden, Bryan Gould, Robin Corbett, Margaret Beckett, Edward Loyden, Brian Sedgemore, Andrew MacKay. 1979 (14): Michael Ancram, Peggy Fenner, James Hill, Barry Henderson, Eric Cockeram, Sydney Chapman, John Wilkinson, Dick Douglas, John Gummer, David Clark, Terry Davis, Ednyfed Davies, David Winnick, Peter Griffiths. 1974O (10): Enoch Powell, Robert Hicks, Fergus Montgomery, Nicholas Scott, Keith Speed, John MacKintosh, Evan Luard, Jeremy Bray, Donald Anderson, Gwynfor Evans. 1974F (20): Gwilym Roberts, Eric Moonman, Christopher Price, Ioan Evans, Colin Jackson, John Ellis, Michael Winstanley, Richard Wainwright, Sydney Irving, David Ennals, Stanley Newens, Gwyneth Dunwoody, Arnold Shaw, Alan Lee Williams, Ronald Atkins, John Lee, Frank Hooley, Gerald Fowler, Frederick Silvester, Winifred Ewing. 1970 (15): Geoffrey Howe, James Kilfedder, Edward Gardner, Martin McLaren, Patricia Hornsby-Smith, Patrick Duffy, Peter Thomas, Richard Thompson, Anthony Meyer, Albert Cooper, David Walder, Montague Woodhouse, William Clark, Charles Curran, Anthony Fell. I want to take this list back further and will update it as I do so. Retreads at by-elections are as follows: 2010-2015 (1): George Galloway. 1997-2001 (3): Michael Portillo, William McCrea, Jacqui Lait. 1992-1997 (2): Jim Sillars, Steve Norris 1983-1987 (1): Tony Benn. 1979-1983 (6): Teddy Taylor, Shirley Williams, Doug Hoyle, Richard Page, Roy Jenkins, Tim Smith. 1974O-1979 (4): Jock Bruce-Gardyne, David Waddington, Alan Haselhurst, Donald Dewar 1974F-1974O (1): Nigel Spearing 1970-1974F (4): Gordon Oakes, Ted Rowlands, Bob Mitchell, Kenneth Baker 1966-1970 (6): Dudley Smith, James Scott-Hopkins, Christopher Chataway, Patrick McNair-Wilson, Julian Amery, Peter Emery All bar Jim Sillars, Roy Jenkins, Alan Haselhurst and Donald Dewar had lost their seats at the immediately preceding GE. Also on the same page the record swing for a GE is given as 17.4% in Enfield Southgate in 1997. This is dubious as I don't believe this was even the biggest swing of that election, Hastings and Rye (where there were no boundary changes), Crosby and Brent North all had bigger swings I believe. At other elections there must have been some isolated big swings also. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election_records#Largest_swings |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 13, 2013 19:03:52 GMT
IMHO, one of the biggest mistakes the SDP made was to not enforce any quality control over the defecting MPs and accepted all of them, even the crap ones At least they drew the line at Michael O'Halloran......eventually. O'Halloran only went to the SDP on the "if you know a better 'ole" principle. Not a surprise that he was the loser in the musical chairs when Islington went from three seats to two. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 19:10:28 GMT
Does anyone know how to edit Wikipedia? On the page 'Former MPs making a comeback at a general election' there are several entries missing. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election_records#Former_MPs_making_a_comeback_at_a_general_electionThe retreads are as follows: 2010 (5): John Cryer, Geraint Davies, Jonathan Evans, Christopher Leslie and Stephen Twigg. 2005 (4): David Evennett, William McCrea, Malcolm Rifkind, Christopher Fraser. 2001 (7): Henry Bellingham, Alistair Burt, Derek Conway, Charles Hendry, Greg Knight, Andrew Mitchell, Bob Spink. 1997 (17): Mike Hancock, Ashok Kumar, Huw Edwards, Sylvia Heal, John Smith, Francis Maude, Ronnie Fearn, Christopher Chope, Alan Clark, John Maples, Michael Fallon, Humfrey Malins, Gerald Howarth, Jonathan Sayeed, Richard Livsey, Gerry Adams, Frank Doran. 1992 (13): Gerry Malone, Warren Hawksley, Michael Ancram, Derek Spencer, Piers Merchant, Mark Robinson, Richard Ottaway, Nick Raynsford, Iain Sprout, John Horam, John Spellar, Bryan Davies, Paul Tyler. 1987 (9): Ann Taylor, Joan Lestor, Bob Cryer, Jim Marshall, John Garrett, Andrew Welsh, Audrey Wise, Margaret Ewing, Bruce Grocott. 1983 (7): Max Madden, Bryan Gould, Robin Corbett, Margaret Beckett, Edward Loyden, Brian Sedgemore, Andrew MacKay. 1979 (14): Michael Ancram, Peggy Fenner, James Hill, Barry Henderson, Eric Cockeram, Sydney Chapman, John Wilkinson, Dick Douglas, John Gummer, David Clark, Terry Davis, Ednyfed Davies, David Winnick, Peter Griffiths. 1974O (10): Enoch Powell, Robert Hicks, Fergus Montgomery, Nicholas Scott, Keith Speed, John MacKintosh, Evan Luard, Jeremy Bray, Donald Anderson, Gwynfor Evans. 1974F (20): Gwilym Roberts, Eric Moonman, Christopher Price, Ioan Evans, Colin Jackson, John Ellis, Michael Winstanley, Richard Wainwright, Sydney Irving, David Ennals, Stanley Newens, Gwyneth Dunwoody, Arnold Shaw, Alan Lee Williams, Ronald Atkins, John Lee, Frank Hooley, Gerald Fowler, Frederick Silvester, Winifred Ewing. 1970 (15): Geoffrey Howe, James Kilfedder, Edward Gardner, Martin McLaren, Patricia Hornsby-Smith, Patrick Duffy, Peter Thomas, Richard Thompson, Anthony Meyer, Albert Cooper, David Walder, Montague Woodhouse, William Clark, Charles Curran, Anthony Fell. I want to take this list back further and will update it as I do so. Retreads at by-elections are as follows: 2010-2015 (1): George Galloway. 1997-2001 (3): Michael Portillo, William McCrea, Jacqui Lait. 1992-1997 (2): Jim Sillars, Steve Norris 1983-1987 (1): Tony Benn. 1979-1983 (6): Teddy Taylor, Shirley Williams, Doug Hoyle, Richard Page, Roy Jenkins, Tim Smith. 1974O-1979 (4): Jock Bruce-Gardyne, David Waddington, Alan Haselhurst, Donald Dewar 1974F-1974O (1): Nigel Spearing 1970-1974F (4): Gordon Oakes, Ted Rowlands, Bob Mitchell, Kenneth Baker 1966-1970 (6): Dudley Smith, James Scott-Hopkins, Christopher Chataway, Patrick McNair-Wilson, Julian Amery, Peter Emery All bar Jim Sillars, Roy Jenkins, Alan Haselhurst and Donald Dewar had lost their seats at the immediately preceding GE. Also on the same page the record swing for a GE is given as 17.4% in Enfield Southgate in 1997. This is dubious as I don't believe this was even the biggest swing of that election, Hastings and Rye (where there were no boundary changes), Crosby and Brent North all had bigger swings I believe. At other elections there must have been some isolated big swings also. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election_records#Largest_swingsIt's pretty easy to edit Wikipedia - if you go to Edit Source at the top, it's all there for you to add to (just use the existing entries to use as a template if you get stuck) I would do it myself but I'm just in the middle of something. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 13, 2013 19:13:20 GMT
Whatever it is, it's not debating the substance of the matter.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Aug 13, 2013 19:22:15 GMT
Well I wasn;t far wrong but evidently 29,027 voters came from Denbigh and 23,546 from Wrexham with 3,130 from merioneth. I'm a bit surprised by this as I didn't think there was so much population in the Denbigh area - I see it included Ruthin as well but thats hardly a major conurbation so maybe Denbigh already included some of that industrial belt near Wrexham. But yeah 42% of Clwyd SW came from Wrexham - 29% of the old Wrexham went to Clwyd SW
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,025
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Post by Sibboleth on Aug 13, 2013 23:30:42 GMT
so maybe Denbigh already included some of that industrial belt near Wrexham. It didn't. But Llangollen is a bit larger that it looks, and the agricultural areas are hardly unpopulated; the old Ceiriog RD had a population well over 7,000 in 1961 for example. |
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Post by mrhell on Aug 14, 2013 2:26:19 GMT
John Roper (Worsley): 15.1% Tom McNally (Stockport): 14.6% John Grant (Islington, North): 13.8% Tom Bradley (Leicester, East): 12.0% Dickson Mabon (Renfrew West and Inverclyde): 11.2% John Horam (Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central): 10.7% Ednyfed Hudson Davies (Basingstoke): 10.2% David Ginsberg (Dewsbury): 10.1% Eric Ogden (Liverpool, West Derby): 9.8% Tom Ellis (South West Clwyd): 8.3% Richard Crawshaw (Liverpool, Broadgreen): 8.1% It's interesting just how little some of these Labour MPs who defected to the SDP brought to the table. Across the country, the Alliance vote in 1983 was about 12 percentage points higher than the Liberal vote in 1979. People like Eric Ogden actually increased the share by less than that. Clearly they didn't have much of a personal vote, or any at all. I don't any of the Newcastle Central wards from 1979 made it into the 1983 seat. The Labour vote dropped by 32%. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 14, 2013 7:57:56 GMT
Newcastle Central post-1983 was mostly the former Newcastle North, but there were bits from the old Newcastle Central. The one which was the confusing one was Newcastle North: the new constituency of that name contained not one voter and not one square inch which had been in the old one.
(Which makes a bit of a mockery of Wikipedia's insistence on writing up constituencies linked by their names, IMO)
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Aug 14, 2013 9:48:31 GMT
IMHO, one of the biggest mistakes the SDP made was to not enforce any quality control over the defecting MPs and accepted all of them, even the crap ones. Surely that stemmed from the SDP being created by MPs, rather than from the ground up? It was about saving their skins and future careers, so they weren't in much of a position to push people out of the lifeboat. |
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Post by greatkingrat on Aug 14, 2013 11:34:20 GMT
(Which makes a bit of a mockery of Wikipedia's insistence on writing up constituencies linked by their names, IMO) To be fair, I'm not sure there is any better way of doing it. It could be worse, the numbered US House districts regularly move all over the place. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 11:53:15 GMT
(Which makes a bit of a mockery of Wikipedia's insistence on writing up constituencies linked by their names, IMO) To be fair, I'm not sure there is any better way of doing it. It could be worse, the numbered US House districts regularly move all over the place. There is no better way of doing it. |
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,025
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Post by Sibboleth on Aug 14, 2013 15:07:43 GMT
Surely you just acknowledge that Newcastle North was abolished in 1983, that Newcastle North was created in 1983?
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euan
Conservative
Posts: 28 
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Post by euan on Aug 14, 2013 15:18:26 GMT
Assuming I'm right in looking at the page titled "Newcastle upon Tyne North (UK Parliament constituency)" - it would seem sensible for someone to add explanatory text indicating that the constituency name was moved to an entirely new area in 1983.
As it is, there's a pretty terrible sentence:
"From its creation in 1918, the seat was safely Conservative — including six years of complex representation in terms of the modern parties by Gwilym Lloyd George, who was Home Secretary for almost three years until 1957 in a Conservative government — until the 1983 General Election, when Labour gained it for the first time and against the national swing, where they saw a heavy landslide defeat, with controversial party-voted policies against EEC membership and against nuclear weapons, which at the time spawned the SDP."
Perhaps something like:
"From its creation in 1918, the seat was safely Conservative — including six years of complex representation in terms of the modern parties by Gwilym Lloyd George, who was Home Secretary for almost three years until 1957 in a Conservative government. This continued until the 1983 General Election, when boundary changes meant that it was a completely new seat (albeit with the old name), covering an entirely different area. This new seat was won by Labour, who have held it ever since."
As it's rather irrelevant to go on about Labour's then-manifesto and rise of the SDP if the real story here is "traditional Labour areas were rearranged into a new constituency which elected a Labour MP".
Someone who knows the history better could probably expand on that more usefully, by indicating which seats the new Newcastle North took its wards from.
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Post by greenchristian on Aug 14, 2013 16:47:30 GMT
To be fair, I'm not sure there is any better way of doing it. It could be worse, the numbered US House districts regularly move all over the place. There is no better way of doing it. It's arguable that having separate articles for the two constituencies - e.g. Newcastle North (UK Parliament Constituency post-1983) and Newcastle North (UK Parliament Constituency pre-1983) - would be a better way of doing it. Of course, with the current way of doing it, the discontinuity should be pointed out very very clearly in the opening sentence (or, if not possible, at least in the opening paragraph). |
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euan
Conservative
Posts: 28
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Post by euan on Aug 14, 2013 19:57:25 GMT
North's article opens with:
Newcastle upon Tyne North is a constituency[n 1] represented in the House of Commons of the UK Parliament since 2010 by Catherine McKinnell of the Labour Party.[n 2]
Would that be better if it opened as follows?
Newcastle upon Tyne North has been the name of two constituencies, one a safe Conservative seat between its creation in 1918 and its abolition in 1983, and one which has been held by the Labour Party since its creation in 1983. Unusually, despite the constituency names being identical, they cover entirely different areas and have no overlap at all. The current MP, Catherine McKinnell, was first elected in 2010.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 14, 2013 20:21:48 GMT
That would not be correct. There were never two Newcastle upon Tyne Norths at one time.
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euan
Conservative
Posts: 28
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Post by euan on Aug 14, 2013 20:28:11 GMT
The old one was abolished at the same time as the new one was created, wasn't it?
As in, there was a Tory MP for Old Newcastle North from 1979 to 1983, and then a Labour MP for New Newcastle North from 1983 to 1987?
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maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 9,299
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Post by maxque on Aug 14, 2013 20:43:51 GMT
Perhaps something what they did for provincial constituency of Bertrand in Quebec would work? ( Wikipedia) The constituency was moved in another region in 1994, so it has two articles. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Aug 14, 2013 20:47:33 GMT
There is a similar problem concerning the Newham ward(s) of Beckton and the Liverpool ward(s)of Croxteth, though there may be a small amount of overlap in the latter case there is none in the former. I don't know if the resepctive Wikipedia articles reflect this, or indeed if such articles exist
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