The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,967
Member is Online
|
Post by The Bishop on Jul 27, 2024 11:00:03 GMT
There is a chance of both those things happening, but again maybe not whilst we are still around.
|
|
spqr
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,907 
|
Post by spqr on Jul 27, 2024 11:33:48 GMT
I always thought Brexit was ultimately doomed by the fact we ARE a European country, for all the Brexitist fantasies of somehow towing us out into the mid-Atlantic. We might - might - not rejoin the EU in my lifetime or yours, but we will in the lifespan of several posters on here. And also, demographics is on their side. A comforting notion for you, based seemingly on the premises that a) UK governments alone can stop divergence, and b) that there will still be an EU left to "rejoin" in the future. I'm not convinced of either, not least because one could just as easily (and justifiably) adapt your opening statement - that the EU is ultimately doomed by the fact it seeks to defy European politics, for all the federalist fantasies of turning it into a "democracy". |
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,967
Member is Online
|
Post by The Bishop on Jul 28, 2024 8:59:37 GMT
I always thought Brexit was ultimately doomed by the fact we ARE a European country, for all the Brexitist fantasies of somehow towing us out into the mid-Atlantic. We might - might - not rejoin the EU in my lifetime or yours, but we will in the lifespan of several posters on here. And also, demographics is on their side. A comforting notion for you, based seemingly on the premises that a) UK governments alone can stop divergence, and b) that there will still be an EU left to "rejoin" in the future. I'm not convinced of either, not least because one could just as easily (and justifiably) adapt your opening statement - that the EU is ultimately doomed by the fact it seeks to defy European politics, for all the federalist fantasies of turning it into a "democracy". "Comforting" doesn't come into it - we ARE a European country and have been for over two millennia, and ideological Brexiteer fantasies of us becoming another US state are massively alienating to the vast majority of us even without the likes of Trump running things - and no I am not "presuming" anything. Brexit sympathisers like to claim the EU is inevitably going to collapse, as they have consistently done since the 1970s if not earlier - its arguably starting to look rather like the classical Marxists "inevitable collapse of capitalism" at this point. And who says the "federalists" will continue to dictate things? Its surely just as possible we get the evolution of the much talked about "multi-speed" institution, which would of course make it easier for the UK to (re)join. |
|
|
|
Post by Pete Whitehead on Jul 28, 2024 9:03:39 GMT
A comforting notion for you, based seemingly on the premises that a) UK governments alone can stop divergence, and b) that there will still be an EU left to "rejoin" in the future. I'm not convinced of either, not least because one could just as easily (and justifiably) adapt your opening statement - that the EU is ultimately doomed by the fact it seeks to defy European politics, for all the federalist fantasies of turning it into a "democracy". "Comforting" doesn't come into it - we ARE a European country and have been for over two millennia, and ideological Brexiteer fantasies of us becoming another US state are massively alienating to the vast majority of us even without the likes of Trump running things - and no I am not "presuming" anything. Brexit sympathisers like to claim the EU is inevitably going to collapse, as they have consistently done since the 1970s if not earlier - its arguably starting to look rather like the classical Marxists "inevitable collapse of capitalism" at this point. And who says the "federalists" will continue to dictate things? Its just as possible we get the evolution of the much talked about "multi-speed" institution, which would of course make it easier for the UK to (re)join. I have literally never encountered anyone who engages in this fantasy. It is purely a fantasy born of the fevered imagination of FBPE types such as yourself and doktorb |
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,967
Member is Online
|
Post by The Bishop on Jul 28, 2024 9:06:51 GMT
Myself, a #FBPE type? That is genuinely hilarious.
My line on Brexit has been pragmatic from the start, and a look at my past posts would confirm this. Nor do I disagree with the current government line that we aren't rejoining the EU any time soon - genuine #FBPEers constantly whine about Starmer's "betrayal" and "cowardice" on the issue.
For your part are you really saying that Farage, Hannan and other leading Brexiteers aren't totally transfixed if not infatuated by the US?
|
|
|
|
Post by Pete Whitehead on Jul 28, 2024 9:12:26 GMT
I'm looking at your current posts which I think are a better indication of your mindset and views than your past ones (particularly given your well known propensity to shift your position depending on either fashion or on the prevailing view in the Labour party). Your most recent post on the subject (ie the one I was responding to) makes you sound like a FBPE type. I'm just telling you how you're coming across
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,967
Member is Online
|
Post by The Bishop on Jul 28, 2024 9:19:53 GMT
But its not, spelling out the reality that we are a European country isn't #FBPE in the slightest.
Brexiteers seeing it as such is arguably one of their problems. Interestingly, prior to the referendum a lot of them used to be more accepting of this and used formulations like "I'm all for Europe, just not the EU" but you don't hear so much of that now.
|
|
|
|
Post by greatkingrat on Jul 28, 2024 9:34:58 GMT
Myself, a #FBPE type? That is genuinely hilarious. My line on Brexit has been pragmatic from the start, and a look at my past posts would confirm this. Nor do I disagree with the current government line that we aren't rejoining the EU any time soon - genuine #FBPEers constantly whine about Starmer's "betrayal" and "cowardice" on the issue. For your part are you really saying that Farage, Hannan and other leading Brexiteers aren't totally transfixed if not infatuated by the US? So have I got this right? Wanting to work with the US equals "become the 51st state" but wanting to work with the EU does not equal "become the United States of Europe" |
|
|
|
Post by uthacalthing on Jul 28, 2024 9:42:37 GMT
I think the UK and US should have a single currency. And no taxes on tea.
|
|
|
|
Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Jul 28, 2024 9:49:51 GMT
Myself, a #FBPE type? That is genuinely hilarious. My line on Brexit has been pragmatic from the start, and a look at my past posts would confirm this. Nor do I disagree with the current government line that we aren't rejoining the EU any time soon - genuine #FBPEers constantly whine about Starmer's "betrayal" and "cowardice" on the issue. For your part are you really saying that Farage, Hannan and other leading Brexiteers aren't totally transfixed if not infatuated by the US? So have I got this right? Wanting to work with the US equals "become the 51st state" but wanting to work with the EU does not equal "become the United States of Europe" How many times have I pointed out that right wing types are more comfortable with American culture than European culture, from candidate debates to light touch regulation to films and cars? The attraction of West Wing style politics is huge to the Brexit brigade, look how quickly Farage legs it to Trump. European politics has always been covered as being "other" and "leading to a takeover" and God knows what else, while American politics is 'sexier' and ruthless and to aspire to. Becoming the 51st State is exactly what Nigel Farage wants. Get democracy out, corporations in. |
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,965
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Jul 28, 2024 9:50:42 GMT
"Comforting" doesn't come into it - we ARE a European country and have been for over two millennia, and ideological Brexiteer fantasies of us becoming another US state are massively alienating to the vast majority of us even without the likes of Trump running things - and no I am not "presuming" anything. Brexit sympathisers like to claim the EU is inevitably going to collapse, as they have consistently done since the 1970s if not earlier - its arguably starting to look rather like the classical Marxists "inevitable collapse of capitalism" at this point. And who says the "federalists" will continue to dictate things? Its just as possible we get the evolution of the much talked about "multi-speed" institution, which would of course make it easier for the UK to (re)join. I have literally never encountered anyone who engages in this fantasy. It is purely a fantasy born of the fevered imagination of FBPE types such as yourself and doktorb If offered today a flip-flop, either or, must be one of the two choices : Full and whole-hearted re-membership of the EU with movement continually ever closer to a unitary EU state with the blue flag and golden stars : Or we become a state in the USA with retained Union Flag, States Rights, State Parliament at Westminster, State Senate in the HOL, mixed economy Health and much diminished NHS, American Gun Laws : I would grab with relish for the American anglophone option. I don't think I would be alone in doing so. |
|
|
|
Post by uthacalthing on Jul 28, 2024 9:53:19 GMT
Those who opposed Brexit were strong advocates for democracy. I remember it well.
|
|
|
|
Post by Merseymike on Jul 28, 2024 10:10:49 GMT
I have literally never encountered anyone who engages in this fantasy. It is purely a fantasy born of the fevered imagination of FBPE types such as yourself and doktorb If offered today a flip-flop, either or, must be one of the two choices : Full and whole-hearted re-membership of the EU with movement continually ever closer to a unitary EU state with the blue flag and golden stars : Or we become a state in the USA with retained Union Flag, States Rights, State Parliament at Westminster, State Senate in the HOL, mixed economy Health and much diminished NHS, American Gun Laws : I would grab with relish for the American anglophone option. I don't think I would be alone in doing so. The Americans are not interested. |
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,965
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Jul 28, 2024 10:18:30 GMT
If offered today a flip-flop, either or, must be one of the two choices : Full and whole-hearted re-membership of the EU with movement continually ever closer to a unitary EU state with the blue flag and golden stars : Or we become a state in the USA with retained Union Flag, States Rights, State Parliament at Westminster, State Senate in the HOL, mixed economy Health and much diminished NHS, American Gun Laws : I would grab with relish for the American anglophone option. I don't think I would be alone in doing so. The Americans are not interested. Possibly not but they might be in the future to have bases and trade outlets so very close to that trade bloc. And to have a manufacturing and healthcare base on the EU's doorstep. |
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,967
Member is Online
|
Post by The Bishop on Jul 28, 2024 10:20:12 GMT
Myself, a #FBPE type? That is genuinely hilarious. My line on Brexit has been pragmatic from the start, and a look at my past posts would confirm this. Nor do I disagree with the current government line that we aren't rejoining the EU any time soon - genuine #FBPEers constantly whine about Starmer's "betrayal" and "cowardice" on the issue. For your part are you really saying that Farage, Hannan and other leading Brexiteers aren't totally transfixed if not infatuated by the US? So have I got this right? Wanting to work with the US equals "become the 51st state" but wanting to work with the EU does not equal "become the United States of Europe" Well unless I am very much mistaken the USA exists and is well established. The "United States Of Europe", however, does not - and indeed won't for some time yet, if ever. Apart from that, brilliant analogy  |
|
spqr
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,907
|
Post by spqr on Jul 28, 2024 12:32:57 GMT
A comforting notion for you, based seemingly on the premises that a) UK governments alone can stop divergence, and b) that there will still be an EU left to "rejoin" in the future. I'm not convinced of either, not least because one could just as easily (and justifiably) adapt your opening statement - that the EU is ultimately doomed by the fact it seeks to defy European politics, for all the federalist fantasies of turning it into a "democracy". "Comforting" doesn't come into it - we ARE a European country and have been for over two millennia, and ideological Brexiteer fantasies of us becoming another US state are massively alienating to the vast majority of us even without the likes of Trump running things - and no I am not "presuming" anything. Brexit sympathisers like to claim the EU is inevitably going to collapse, as they have consistently done since the 1970s if not earlier - its arguably starting to look rather like the classical Marxists "inevitable collapse of capitalism" at this point. And who says the "federalists" will continue to dictate things? Its surely just as possible we get the evolution of the much talked about "multi-speed" institution, which would of course make it easier for the UK to (re)join. The "comforting" aspect I speak of comes not from any notion of being European (as it happens, I agree: we are European, but as that is not something determined by EU membership I don't see it as having much relevance), but your complacent belief that all you have to do is sit and wait long enough until you get your way. That is effectively just wishcasting, nothing more; perhaps you aren't an #FBPE type, but proclaiming that the future is yours regardless of circumstance is something people struck with that unfortunate affliction do all the time, which may be one reason why you come across to others as suffering from it yourself. As for whether or not the EU will survive, my point is that there is not some irrevocable law of nature which ensures it will still be there in years to come. All things might happen: this is why, if you're going to invoke inevitability and speak of your opponents as being doomed, you should realise that this can work both ways. |
|
Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
Posts: 6,138
|
Post by Foggy on Jul 28, 2024 16:33:15 GMT
I am not aware of the EU ever banning its member states from flying their own flags.
Other than that, the things Carlton would enjoy about becoming a US state are things I wouldn't like, which is just a difference of opinion.
But to claim that US states have more rights to fly their own flags than EU member states do is simply incorrect. If anything, the sight of the Stars and Stripes flying alone is far more ubiquitous across the Atlantic than the circle of twelve on a blue background is in isolation on the continent. It almost always flies alongside national, regional and even municipal flags.
Actually, one more point while I'm at it: if indeed the EU is heading towards being a unitary organisation (and I'm not sure that it is), it'll be because the British government got the word "federal" removed from a draft version of the Lisbon Treaty since the right-wing media had successfully had made enough swing voters fearful of it in a European context. How many of those people realise it actually means decentralised??
|
|
|
|
Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Jul 28, 2024 21:34:32 GMT
Unfortunately Foggy the Brexit supporters only believe what they want to believe. A federal UK would perhaps dilute some of the worst elements of English nationalism. A federal EU would be a perfect balance of identity and leadership if done correctly. The EU flag is hardly flown anywhere outside HQs and official offices. I tell you where else I've seen the EU flag: celebrating everything from bus station projects to clean beaches, showing us the funding we used to get, all of which has been denied us ever since Brexit. |
|
Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
Posts: 6,138
|
Post by Foggy on Jul 28, 2024 22:26:05 GMT
We've certainly seen the Union Flag on a lot more noticeboards outside spaces being renovated lately, plus at the end of the credits to some TV shows if the production company involved took even 0.1% of its budget from DCMS. And also on aid workers' jackets when giving out food parcels.
Previously, any major public works project with some sort of funding/planning permission link to central government would, at best, have the name of the relevant Department on a sign at the entrance next to the Coat of Arms rather than the flag.
Essentially, if something was funded "by Europe", the EU made sure we knew about it, because among other things it doesn't have its own coat of arms so it stuck the flag on stuff instead. Whitehall was obviously starting to get tetchy about this and wanted citizens to know when things were funded by Westminster as well. Ministers clearly thought the flag was a clearer and more universally understood symbol. I don't think plastering the Union Flag everywhere will make people like central government more - if anything, it might make people of all political stripes enjoy seeing our flag less!
|
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,965
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Jul 29, 2024 10:02:45 GMT
Unfortunately Foggy the Brexit supporters only believe what they want to believe. A federal UK would perhaps dilute some of the worst elements of English nationalism. A federal EU would be a perfect balance of identity and leadership if done correctly. The EU flag is hardly flown anywhere outside HQs and official offices. I tell you where else I've seen the EU flag: celebrating everything from bus station projects to clean beaches, showing us the funding we used to get, all of which has been denied us ever since Brexit. Yes, that has all been very good news. And we don't see the accursed nasty blue duster very much anymore and I always deface them where they pop up like vile weeds on boards of contempt near something we paid for and 'They' didn't. We sent them so much more money than the dribble of spit they returned. All elements of English nationalism are good, manly and wholesome. And you are correct to assert that this power for good is English nationalism and not a rat fink British anything. |
|
