|
|
Post by biglin on Jul 6, 2024 20:18:40 GMT
What if labour had won in 1o83?
Unilateral disarmament, out of the EU, green energy policies, no running down our industries, no miner's strike - just the most obvious changes.
|
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Jul 6, 2024 22:06:33 GMT
How this plays out depends on what changed to make it possible. A Labour win in 1983 requires the SDP to not form (so either the gang of four choose to stay - which probably requires Foot to lose the leadership contest - or at least two of their three big names just happen to die before they made that decision). It also requires Thatcher's government to have somehow maintained the unpopularity they had during their first couple of years.
|
|
Sandy
Forum Regular
Posts: 3,044 
|
Post by Sandy on Jul 6, 2024 22:11:35 GMT
How this plays out depends on what changed to make it possible. A Labour win in 1983 requires the SDP to not form (so either the gang of four choose to stay - which probably requires Foot to lose the leadership contest - or at least two of their three big names just happen to die before they made that decision). It also requires Thatcher's government to have somehow maintained the unpopularity they had during their first couple of years. To hone in on your latter point, perhaps the Falklands War not happening or the government choosing to roll over and let Argentina have them for some bizarre reason maybe? |
|
|
|
Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jul 7, 2024 7:41:21 GMT
How this plays out depends on what changed to make it possible. A Labour win in 1983 requires the SDP to not form (so either the gang of four choose to stay - which probably requires Foot to lose the leadership contest - or at least two of their three big names just happen to die before they made that decision). It also requires Thatcher's government to have somehow maintained the unpopularity they had during their first couple of years. To hone in on your latter point, perhaps the Falklands War not happening or the government choosing to roll over and let Argentina have them for some bizarre reason maybe?
Or even worse losing the war.
|
|
|
|
Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jul 7, 2024 7:46:04 GMT
What if labour had won in 1o83? Unilateral disarmament, out of the EU, green energy policies, no running down our industries, no miner's strike - just the most obvious changes.
Industries would have closed, but more slowly so the social impact would have been slower, Thatcher didn't have to do it so brutely.
Right to buy and privitisations would not have happened or been delayed and the aspirational 80's wouldn't have happened.
This is assuming that the Labour government survived any time at all after 1983, it could well be that the IMF returns and the country revolts causing speady new elections as the Labour Party splits assunder.
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,205
|
Post by The Bishop on Jul 7, 2024 10:42:38 GMT
To hone in on your latter point, perhaps the Falklands War not happening or the government choosing to roll over and let Argentina have them for some bizarre reason maybe? Or even worse losing the war.
Indeed, and it was actually a closer run thing than surface appearances suggested. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2024 10:53:37 GMT
It would have been perfect. No more council house sales. No miners' strike. A left-wing Brexit in the 1980s. No longer having nuclear weapons or giving money to Brussels or NATO. I wish Foot had won. I blame the SDP scabs for splitting the opposition Maaggie. Just awful people. I respected Bruce Douglas-Mann.
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,205
|
Post by The Bishop on Jul 7, 2024 14:21:56 GMT
Though one of the first things Kinnock u-turned on after becoming Labour leader was withdrawal from the EEC (as it was then known)
It could quite conceivably have been much the same in government too.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2024 17:42:08 GMT
Labour should not have u-turned on ending right to buy, although now it has paid dividends as right to buy flats became shitty buy to lets in places like Westminster.
|
|
Sandy
Forum Regular
Posts: 3,044
|
Post by Sandy on Jul 8, 2024 0:01:48 GMT
It would have been perfect. No more council house sales. No miners' strike. A left-wing Brexit in the 1980s. No longer having nuclear weapons or giving money to Brussels or NATO. I wish Foot had won. I blame the SDP scabs for splitting the opposition Maaggie. Just awful people. I respected Bruce Douglas-Mann. Yes perfect. My grandparents would have never had the opportunity to be homeowners but I’m sure they would happily trade that for an armful of socialist dogma. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2024 4:50:18 GMT
It would have been perfect. No more council house sales. No miners' strike. A left-wing Brexit in the 1980s. No longer having nuclear weapons or giving money to Brussels or NATO. I wish Foot had won. I blame the SDP scabs for splitting the opposition Maaggie. Just awful people. I respected Bruce Douglas-Mann. Yes perfect. My grandparents would have never had the opportunity to be homeowners but I’m sure they would happily trade that for an armful of socialist dogma. Well done to your grandparents, but be in no doubt that Right to Buy is a selfish, cancerous policy that has fucked British society beyond all recognition, TBH. |
|
|
|
Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jul 8, 2024 5:06:55 GMT
Yes perfect. My grandparents would have never had the opportunity to be homeowners but I’m sure they would happily trade that for an armful of socialist dogma. Well done to your grandparents, but be in no doubt that Right to Buy is a selfish, cancerous policy that has fucked British society beyond all recognition, TBH. The right to buy idea isn't the problem, it's was the way it was implemented that was problematic in the long term. If Councils had been allowed to spend the money from such sales on building more council houses which they could then only legally sell for more than they cost to build, we'd be in a better position now than we are. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2024 5:09:31 GMT
Well done to your grandparents, but be in no doubt that Right to Buy is a selfish, cancerous policy that has fucked British society beyond all recognition, TBH. The right to buy idea isn't the problem, it's was the way it was implemented that was problematic in the long term. If Councils had been allowed to spend the money from such sales on building more council houses which they could then only legally sell for more than they cost to build, we'd be in a better position now than we are. Fine, but as someone who's lived in a shitty, decaying, run down ex-council flat in Hackney in East London, colour me sceptical. I'm biased on this issue I'm afraid. |
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,205
|
Post by The Bishop on Jul 8, 2024 8:33:42 GMT
However the Tsar is correct here, the Tories stopped councils doing as was described for ideological reasons.
|
|
Sandy
Forum Regular
Posts: 3,044
|
Post by Sandy on Jul 8, 2024 8:58:09 GMT
Yes perfect. My grandparents would have never had the opportunity to be homeowners but I’m sure they would happily trade that for an armful of socialist dogma. Well done to your grandparents, but be in no doubt that Right to Buy is a selfish, cancerous policy that has fucked British society beyond all recognition, TBH. Yes, very selfish of a postman and a chip shop assistant to aspire to own their own house. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2024 10:55:10 GMT
Well done to your grandparents, but be in no doubt that Right to Buy is a selfish, cancerous policy that has fucked British society beyond all recognition, TBH. Yes, very selfish of a postman and a chip shop assistant to aspire to own their own house. Not what I said, but taking a council house out of circulation isn't great. |
|
|
|
Post by johnloony on Jul 8, 2024 11:02:32 GMT
Yes, very selfish of a postman and a chip shop assistant to aspire to own their own house. Not what I said, but taking a council house out of circulation isn't great. Owning a house doesn’t “take it out of circulation”. It still exists. It still forms part of the nation’s housing stock. It can still be sold and bought. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2024 11:05:26 GMT
Not what I said, but taking a council house out of circulation isn't great. Owning a house doesn’t “take it out of circulation”. It still exists. It still forms part of the nation’s housing stock. It can still be sold and bought. It takes it out of council circulation and allows it to be rapaciously rented out - trust me, I've lived in an ex council felt that went that way. Some people just want council housing and it isn't taking down our country to suggest Right to Buy is a bad thing. Nobody says don't buy a house, just not one built at taxpayers' expense. |
|
|
|
Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jul 8, 2024 11:15:03 GMT
Owning a house doesn’t “take it out of circulation”. It still exists. It still forms part of the nation’s housing stock. It can still be sold and bought. It takes it out of council circulation and allows it to be rapaciously rented out - trust me, I've lived in an ex council felt that went that way. Some people just want council housing and it isn't taking down our country to suggest Right to Buy is a bad thing. Nobody says don't buy a house, just not one built at taxpayers' expense. Right to buy isn't bad in and of itself, it's implementation was poor, that's the problem. The problems were the reasons I mentioned before and more. The housing problems now are partly due to badly implemented right to buy, but also due to other poor housing policy. Plus the too easy availability of cheap buy to let mortgages. Your crap private ex council flat rental wasn't down to buy to let existing, it was down to so much more than that a few of which I have just mentioned. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2024 11:25:56 GMT
It takes it out of council circulation and allows it to be rapaciously rented out - trust me, I've lived in an ex council felt that went that way. Some people just want council housing and it isn't taking down our country to suggest Right to Buy is a bad thing. Nobody says don't buy a house, just not one built at taxpayers' expense. Right to buy isn't bad in and of itself, it's implementation was poor, that's the problem. The problems were the reasons I mentioned before and more. The housing problems now are partly due to badly implemented right to buy, but also due to other poor housing policy. Plus the too easy availability of cheap buy to let mortgages. Your crap private ex council flat rental wasn't down to buy to let existing, it was down to so much more than that a few of which I have just mentioned. Fair enough. |
|
