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Post by gwynthegriff on Sept 5, 2023 11:46:29 GMT
Indeed. It has parallels with UK inward migration of course. And arguably also the Traveler communities. Maybe even with indigenous linguistic minorities, look you. A phrase I have never uttered to the best of my recollection. And worth pointing out that the aboriginal community of Australia are not a result of (recent) inward migration, which rather changes the context. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
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Post by The Bishop on Sept 5, 2023 12:42:18 GMT
Did the West Africa Patrol actually ask any of their liberatees where their prefered destination was?
What a remarkably silly question. I have little doubt the vast majority of them would have preferred not to be enslaved by anybody. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,759 
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Post by J.G.Harston on Sept 5, 2023 13:07:05 GMT
Did the West Africa Patrol actually ask any of their liberatees where their prefered destination was?
What a remarkably silly question. I have little doubt the vast majority of them would have preferred not to be enslaved by anybody. That's exactly the point of the question. |
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Post by uthacalthing on Sept 6, 2023 19:04:58 GMT
then no-one in this debate is arguing for reparations so this is an irrelevance to the thread. Which did however make me think. Snd having thunk, I think that the case for reparations for the indigenous people of both the USA and Australia is far stronger than the case for the descendants of the transatlantic slave trade 1/ with regard to the descendants of slaves, it is not clear that they, as opposed to their ancestors, have suffered. With Indigenous people, it is to a far greater extent. 2/ with regard to who has benefited so who ought to be liable to pay reparations, it is far from clear with regard to the slave trade. With regard to Indigenous people, it is everyone who is not indigenous. 3/many descendants of slaves are also descendants of enslavers. As such they arguably owe themselves reparations. This is less true of indigenous people Of course compensating the Yolnu people for the genocide of the Tasmanian people is a tad flawed. Here is something rather lovely |
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Post by uthacalthing on Sept 6, 2023 20:10:38 GMT
Geoffrey was from what we whites arrogantly know as Arnhem land. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnhem_LandIn 2013–14, the entire region contributed around A$1.3 billion or 7 percent to the Northern Territory's gross state product, mainly through bauxite mining. It has a population of 16,230 (2007) 12,000 of whom are Indigenous Peoples. On my sums that is a $80,000 for every man woman and child, even including the 4,000 non-indigenous people who are presumably the ones actually mining Bauxite You might wonder if these people really (really) really want to live their traditional way of life or if they might prefer to be integrated or even assimilated. Most of them are part of the Outstation Movement, which began in the 1970s, when people began to leave the approved native reserves and urban areas and return or migrate to locations where they could live in accordance with their traditions en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outstation_(Aboriginal_community)These people have overtly rejected integration. But are "progressive" Australians really ready to let them live on their own land in accordance with laws that might include values that horrify said progressive Australians? It might not be very #MeToo for example. It might even be homophobic. Corporal punishment might be preferred to "conciliation". They might decide to spend the bauxite money on Grog. Or they might decide to ban the mining of Bauxite. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2023 21:15:09 GMT
Geoffrey was from what we whites arrogantly know as Arnhem land. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnhem_LandIn 2013–14, the entire region contributed around A$1.3 billion or 7 percent to the Northern Territory's gross state product, mainly through bauxite mining. It has a population of 16,230 (2007) 12,000 of whom are Indigenous Peoples. On my sums that is a $80,000 for every man woman and child, even including the 4,000 non-indigenous people who are presumably the ones actually mining Bauxite You might wonder if these people really (really) really want to live their traditional way of life or if they might prefer to be integrated or even assimilated. Most of them are part of the Outstation Movement, which began in the 1970s, when people began to leave the approved native reserves and urban areas and return or migrate to locations where they could live in accordance with their traditions en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outstation_(Aboriginal_community)These people have overtly rejected integration. But are "progressive" Australians really ready to let them live on their own land in accordance with laws that might include values that horrify said progressive Australians? It might not be very #MeToo for example. It might even be homophobic. Corporal punishment might be preferred to "conciliation". They might decide to spend the bauxite money on Grog. Or they might decide to ban the mining of Bauxite. I'd be interested in your evidence for this? |
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Post by uthacalthing on Sept 6, 2023 21:20:57 GMT
No, you wouldn't
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2023 21:25:15 GMT
No I genuinely would. I am unaware of any polling or any cultural factors that would suggest those social and political views were disproportionately common amongst indigenous Australians, I was wondering if you had more insight |
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Post by uthacalthing on Sept 6, 2023 21:32:09 GMT
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Post by Delighted Of Tunbridge Wells on Sept 6, 2023 21:35:33 GMT
Geoffrey was from what we whites arrogantly know as Arnhem land. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnhem_LandIn 2013–14, the entire region contributed around A$1.3 billion or 7 percent to the Northern Territory's gross state product, mainly through bauxite mining. It has a population of 16,230 (2007) 12,000 of whom are Indigenous Peoples. On my sums that is a $80,000 for every man woman and child, even including the 4,000 non-indigenous people who are presumably the ones actually mining Bauxite You might wonder if these people really (really) really want to live their traditional way of life or if they might prefer to be integrated or even assimilated. Most of them are part of the Outstation Movement, which began in the 1970s, when people began to leave the approved native reserves and urban areas and return or migrate to locations where they could live in accordance with their traditions en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outstation_(Aboriginal_community)These people have overtly rejected integration. But are "progressive" Australians really ready to let them live on their own land in accordance with laws that might include values that horrify said progressive Australians? It might not be very #MeToo for example. It might even be homophobic. Corporal punishment might be preferred to "conciliation". They might decide to spend the bauxite money on Grog. Or they might decide to ban the mining of Bauxite. Most of them may be unwilling to integrate, but should you judge the rest by the actions of the others? And what makes you think that they don't have jobs in industries such as mining? That's like saying every elderly Rangers fan is defrauding the DWP, whereas it's only about 35 percent in reality. |
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iain
Lib Dem
Posts: 11,426
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Post by iain on Sept 6, 2023 21:39:59 GMT
No I genuinely would. I am unaware of any polling or any cultural factors that would suggest those social and political views were disproportionately common amongst indigenous Australians, I was wondering if you had more insight Probably good to remember at this point that ‘indigenous Australians’ encompasses a large number of different cultures. |
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,798
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Post by Georg Ebner on Sept 6, 2023 21:46:13 GMT
In the conText of the USA emerges the issue, that ~98% of "Blacks" are realiter "Browns", i.e. with lots of genes from white slaveHolders.
Thus any fair exPropriation would have to include them, too...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2023 21:48:15 GMT
No I genuinely would. I am unaware of any polling or any cultural factors that would suggest those social and political views were disproportionately common amongst indigenous Australians, I was wondering if you had more insight Probably good to remember at this point that ‘indigenous Australians’ encompasses a large number of different cultures. This is also very true. And the boundaries of the different cultural groups are often poorly defined, which is partly as a result of colonisation |
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Post by uthacalthing on Sept 6, 2023 21:55:37 GMT
In the conText of the USA emerges the issue, that ~98% of "Blacks" are realiter "Browns", i.e. with lots of genes from white slaveHolders. Thus any fair exPropriation would have to include them, too... Or overseers. Many of Scots heritage. That heritage shows through in the Confederate battle flag and in a fraternal organisation called the Ku Klux Klan Among the peoples of Australia, there may be be many peoples who would overwhelmingly choose integration and who long for better welfare services and a nice juicy Quango like The Crofting Commission to get onto. The fact that my sympathies lie with the Outstation movement is of course wholly predictably and of no relevance to the choices facing those who are facing them. |
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Sept 6, 2023 22:06:18 GMT
In the conText of the USA emerges the issue, that ~98% of "Blacks" are realiter "Browns", i.e. with lots of genes from white slaveHolders. Thus any fair exPropriation would have to include them, too...  |
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Post by ntyuk1707 on Sept 8, 2023 11:54:39 GMT
I note Yes campaigners have been stepping up the rhetoric about how prominent No campaigners are racist liars. No chances of that electorally backfiring...
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Post by uthacalthing on Sept 8, 2023 14:01:48 GMT
The Voice will cost money. Obviously, that money would be better spent on buses or on the NHS.
There are racist comments being made that I would have some sympathy with. Such as
"I do not want you to consult me. I want you to get off my land"
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cibwr
Plaid Cymru
Posts: 3,589
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Post by cibwr on Sept 8, 2023 14:18:21 GMT
I note Yes campaigners have been stepping up the rhetoric about how prominent No campaigners are racist liars. No chances of that electorally backfiring... Even if that is true..... |
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Post by uthacalthing on Sept 8, 2023 18:19:14 GMT
No I genuinely would. I am unaware of any polling or any cultural factors that would suggest those social and political views were disproportionately common amongst indigenous Australians, I was wondering if you had more insight On reflection I do have more insight. 100,000 years of human history across all races and cultures, 10,000 of which we might call civilisation show a consistent default setting of oppression of women, homophobia and confidence in the benefits of corporal punishment. Across 95% of current humanity it still does. The Ingenious peoples of Australia consisted of hundreds of distinct nations. If the reality was that these hundreds of nations had diverged from the general pattern of human society by being progressive, egalitarian, inclusive and tolerant until the arrival of Abel Tasman and James Cook and their accursed reactionary ways, I am pretty sure somebody would have drawn attention to this fact. And if you are going to try to troll somebody, best not try it with me. |
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 7,053
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Post by jamie on Sept 8, 2023 19:19:48 GMT
I note Yes campaigners have been stepping up the rhetoric about how prominent No campaigners are racist liars. No chances of that electorally backfiring... There will be some racists around the No campaign, but the Yes campaign is just so hysterical towards anybody who isn't full throttle in support of Yes that its long past the point of 'boy who cried wolf'. Its ever more clear that the Labor government should have ran the campaign, instead of leaving it to the activist aboriginal establishment* who are unable and unwilling to appeal to the majority of Australians. *essentially the 'mainstream' between the Blak sovereignty movement and the assimilationist right, the Yes campaign is basically being ran by the positive discrimination lobby |
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