Tamworth by-election 2023

[Deleted]

We previously lived on benefits and had a TV license. Should we have just fucked off?

[doktorb🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️]

Almost all functions of the DWP/Job Centre are online and 99% of job applications are online. This is why having a smartphone or laptop is essential (and in response to 'they can always go to the library', the Tories have shut most of them down)

[matureleft]

Oct 18, 2023 8:20:26 GMT rcronald said:

Oct 18, 2023 8:15:25 GMT matureleft said:

I suppose I'm old-fashioned but no, I don't tell someone to "fuck off" when they ask for help even when I think their choices are foolish or even selfish. If they need a discussion on their spending choices I give that, and there are agencies that can do the same. Similarly if I could cash the times a conversation started with the words 'you'll think I've been foolish' I would be quite a wealthy man yet I never answered 'you bet'. The purposes of being an elected representative are various but one of them is not to cast moral judgements or tell someone that they've been stupid. It's to take that person from where they now are - asking for help - and suggest the next steps. This man clearly isn't right for the role of a modern MP where casework is pretty heavy (or he needs to employ decent people to do it and keep well away from the task). 

I believe that the child should be taken away until the parents get their act together (if it comes to excessive spending) and that the state should probably help the parents develop healthier spending habits. I understand that it might sound harsh, but it is for the health and well-being of the child.

Well, that can indeed be a reasonable step in some circumstances but the MP/Councillor is not the person to make that judgement, though they should refer the case to social services if there's evidence of neglect or cruelty. I wouldn't do that on the basis that they just are paying for a fancy TV service! But we are in agreement that just saying 'fuck off' or similar isn't the answer?

[Pete Whitehead]

Oct 18, 2023 7:41:27 GMT batman said:

Oct 18, 2023 0:23:53 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

Bury & Radcliffe was held by Labour in 1979

yes, that was the 38-vote majority that manchesterman referred to, he just got the wrong election & the wrong winning party. The Tories held on to Bury & Radcliffe in February 1974 by more than 300 votes. I remember at the time that Frank White was said to be a particularly well-liked constituency MP, and his against-the-odds hold was put down to that by most pundits. He also kept the swing down to somewhat below the national average (notionally, anyway, as worked out by psephologists) in Bury North in 1983 but failed to hold on in the face of a further national swing. He then moved to Bolton NE in 1987 but although again he achieved a slightly above-average result he was unable to gain the seat from Peter Thurnham.

It's easy enough to check past parliamentary election results, every constituency past & present has a Wikipedia entry.

Well he said Feb 74 and indeed the Conservatives did win then and lost in 1979 as well as 2017, so not a very good belwether really. Bury North is quite different to Bury & Radcliffe of course and was notionally Conservative in 1979, but then it would probably have been notionally Conservative in October 1974 as well so..

[Pete Whitehead]

Oct 18, 2023 7:44:39 GMT batman said:

I seem to recall that notionally Bury North was regarded as a Tory seat when formed in 1983, but that Bury South was notionally Labour. Of course Labour won neither seat until 1997.

.
I'm pretty sure Bury South was notionally Conservative too

[graham]

I have some sympathy for that Tory candidate's underlying feelings here but would certainly not express myself in such terms. I imagine his core point is that 'essentials' - such as feeding the family etc - should always take priotity over 'luxuries' and optional extras.
When I was growing up in the 1960s and early 1970s , owning a telephone - all landline then - was very much associated with being middle class and reasonably comfortable off. Very few pupils at school had a home telephone.My own family waited until 1984 to have that installed. In the 70s owning a colour TV was seen as a sign of affluence - and back in the mid to late 1950s having a television of any kind was thought of as quite 'posh'! At different times,therefore, these items were looked upon as being luxuries which were only bought when basic family needs had been met. Doubtless this Tory candidate feels the same way re-mobile phone contracts etc.

[East Anglian Lefty]

It's certainly the case that essentials should be prioritised over luxuries. It's also the case that these discussions often define things as luxuries that aren't and are more interested in imposing a moral judgement than actually assessing the situations people find themselves in.

[stb12]

There’s no doubt a lot of people would agree or at least sympathise with where he was coming from but the rude and simplistic way it’s put across in that post will be off putting to a lot at the same time

[stb12]

Oct 18, 2023 8:56:56 GMT graham said:

I have some sympathy for that Tory candidate's underlying feelings here but would certainly not express myself in such terms. I imagine his core point is that 'essentials' - such as feeding the family etc - should always take priotity over 'luxuries' and optional extras.
When I was growing up in the 1960s and early 1970s , owning a telephone - all landline then - was very much associated with being middle class and reasonably comfortable off. Very few pupils at school had a home telephone.My own family waited until 1984 to have that installed. In the 70s owning a colour TV was seen as a sign of affluence - and back in the mid to late 1950s having a television of any kind was thought of as quite 'posh'! At different times,therefore, these items were looked upon as being luxuries which were only bought when basic family needs had been met. Doubtless this Tory candidate feels the same way re-mobile phone contracts etc.

In the earlier days of smart phones there could be a fair point to be made of that being a luxury since a basic Nokia would still give you the ability to make and receive calls when required

But there’s no doubt the world has moved so rapidly towards being 24/7 online that not having easy online access throughout the day (including when not at home) would make basic parts of life very awkward

[graham]

Oct 18, 2023 9:39:28 GMT stb12 said:

Oct 18, 2023 8:56:56 GMT graham said:

I have some sympathy for that Tory candidate's underlying feelings here but would certainly not express myself in such terms. I imagine his core point is that 'essentials' - such as feeding the family etc - should always take priotity over 'luxuries' and optional extras.
When I was growing up in the 1960s and early 1970s , owning a telephone - all landline then - was very much associated with being middle class and reasonably comfortable off. Very few pupils at school had a home telephone.My own family waited until 1984 to have that installed. In the 70s owning a colour TV was seen as a sign of affluence - and back in the mid to late 1950s having a television of any kind was thought of as quite 'posh'! At different times,therefore, these items were looked upon as being luxuries which were only bought when basic family needs had been met. Doubtless this Tory candidate feels the same way re-mobile phone contracts etc.

In the earlier days of smart phones there could be a fair point to be made of that being a luxury since a basic Nokia would still give you the ability to make and receive calls when required

But there’s no doubt the world has moved so rapidly towards being 24/7 online that not having easy online access throughout the day (including when not at home) would make basic parts of life very awkward

Well I have never owned a smartphone and whilst I do have a basic Nokia, I only carry it with me whilst driving to guard against possible mechanical breakdown. Very rarely is it switched on.

[stb12]

Oct 18, 2023 9:48:32 GMT graham said:

Oct 18, 2023 9:39:28 GMT stb12 said:

In the earlier days of smart phones there could be a fair point to be made of that being a luxury since a basic Nokia would still give you the ability to make and receive calls when required

But there’s no doubt the world has moved so rapidly towards being 24/7 online that not having easy online access throughout the day (including when not at home) would make basic parts of life very awkward

Well I have never owned a smartphone and whilst I do have a basic Nokia, I only carry it with me whilst driving to guard against possible mechanical breakdown. Very rarely is it switched on.

Certainly sounds like a more old fashioned way of living! But maybe more peaceful?

[manchesterman]

Oct 18, 2023 7:41:27 GMT batman said:

Oct 18, 2023 0:23:53 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

Bury & Radcliffe was held by Labour in 1979

yes, that was the 38-vote majority that manchesterman referred to, he just got the wrong election & the wrong winning party. The Tories held on to Bury & Radcliffe in February 1974 by more than 300 votes. I remember at the time that Frank White was said to be a particularly well-liked constituency MP, and his against-the-odds hold was put down to that by most pundits. He also kept the swing down to somewhat below the national average (notionally, anyway, as worked out by psephologists) in Bury North in 1983 but failed to hold on in the face of a further national swing. He then moved to Bolton NE in 1987 but although again he achieved a slightly above-average result he was unable to gain the seat from Peter Thurnham.

It's easy enough to check past parliamentary election results, every constituency past & present has a Wikipedia entry.

Apologies. I did check the wiki page but posted  when I was very tired and misread some figures.

However, I still contend that it is an excellent bellwether seat as it is always marginal and - give or take a few hundred votes - is won by the overall winners

[adlai52]

Would be interested to know if the recently discovered gaff by the Conservative candidate has made it's way into any campaign literature, online ads etc... 'He's had his say, now you get to have yours' etc...

[yellowperil]

Oct 18, 2023 9:48:32 GMT graham said:

Oct 18, 2023 9:39:28 GMT stb12 said:

In the earlier days of smart phones there could be a fair point to be made of that being a luxury since a basic Nokia would still give you the ability to make and receive calls when required

But there’s no doubt the world has moved so rapidly towards being 24/7 online that not having easy online access throughout the day (including when not at home) would make basic parts of life very awkward

Well I have never owned a smartphone and whilst I do have a basic Nokia, I only carry it with me whilst driving to guard against possible mechanical breakdown. Very rarely is it switched on.

Absolutely a man after my own heart, and I could almost say the same thing. Almost because my son  insisted on changing my Nokia for their own old (long discarded ) iPhone.  However it is hardly ever used and if I do use it it then I would use it exactly  in the same way as I used my Nokia , and how you continue to use yours.

[greatkingrat]

Oct 18, 2023 11:20:58 GMT adlai52 said:

Would be interested to know if the recently discovered gaff by the Conservative candidate has made it's way into any campaign literature, online ads etc... 'He's had his say, now you get to have yours' etc...

I think you'd be surprised how many voters would actually agree with him. The professionally offended weren't going to vote Conservative anyway.

[CatholicLeft]

Oct 18, 2023 11:35:46 GMT greatkingrat said:

Oct 18, 2023 11:20:58 GMT adlai52 said:

Would be interested to know if the recently discovered gaff by the Conservative candidate has made it's way into any campaign literature, online ads etc... 'He's had his say, now you get to have yours' etc...

I think you'd be surprised how many voters would actually agree with him. The professionally offended weren't going to vote Conservative anyway.

Aye, but many of them are in the same situation. Nobody is more judgemental than those who live the same life.

[Pete Whitehead]

Again - saying something that some other people find objectionable or disagree with is not a 'gaffe'

[The Bishop]

Oct 18, 2023 11:35:46 GMT greatkingrat said:

Oct 18, 2023 11:20:58 GMT adlai52 said:

Would be interested to know if the recently discovered gaff by the Conservative candidate has made it's way into any campaign literature, online ads etc... 'He's had his say, now you get to have yours' etc...

I think you'd be surprised how many voters would actually agree with him. The professionally offended weren't going to vote Conservative anyway.

I suspect support for this sort of thing peaked a decade or so ago - since then, financial hardship has spread to more than just "the undeserving".

And many boomers may still be staggeringly ignorant about how essential an online connection is to the majority these days, but most of those younger won't be.

[jamesdoyle]

Oct 18, 2023 9:39:28 GMT stb12 said:

Oct 18, 2023 8:56:56 GMT graham said:

I have some sympathy for that Tory candidate's underlying feelings here but would certainly not express myself in such terms. I imagine his core point is that 'essentials' - such as feeding the family etc - should always take priotity over 'luxuries' and optional extras.
When I was growing up in the 1960s and early 1970s , owning a telephone - all landline then - was very much associated with being middle class and reasonably comfortable off. Very few pupils at school had a home telephone.My own family waited until 1984 to have that installed. In the 70s owning a colour TV was seen as a sign of affluence - and back in the mid to late 1950s having a television of any kind was thought of as quite 'posh'! At different times,therefore, these items were looked upon as being luxuries which were only bought when basic family needs had been met. Doubtless this Tory candidate feels the same way re-mobile phone contracts etc.

In the earlier days of smart phones there could be a fair point to be made of that being a luxury since a basic Nokia would still give you the ability to make and receive calls when required

But there’s no doubt the world has moved so rapidly towards being 24/7 online that not having easy online access throughout the day (including when not at home) would make basic parts of life very awkward

Also, getting a smartphone can mean you have a two year or longer contract to actually pay for the phone. If you become unemployed or otherwise lose income during that time, you can't just stop paying for it.

[jamesdoyle]

Oct 18, 2023 11:35:46 GMT greatkingrat said:

Oct 18, 2023 11:20:58 GMT adlai52 said:

Would be interested to know if the recently discovered gaff by the Conservative candidate has made it's way into any campaign literature, online ads etc... 'He's had his say, now you get to have yours' etc...

I think you'd be surprised how many voters would actually agree with him. The professionally offended weren't going to vote Conservative anyway.

I don't know, your candidate seems 'professionally offended' by people having TVs or smartphones.