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Post by jimboo2017 on Aug 4, 2023 12:11:21 GMT
well, yes and no. I would suggest another factor was the close links between the Catholic Church and the Labour Party. There had been scores of Catholic Tory candidates in the past but none got elected. That's not because the Tory party didn't want them elected, it's because voters didn't. Anecdotally I'm noticing that among Scottish Catholics that church going does still seem to correlate closely to whether you are a Labour voter and non church going to SNP, although I suspect when you allow for age much but not all of the difference will disappear. Also anecdotally Scots who go south of the border seem to become Tory at an amazing rate. And that's been going on for as long as I was aware that Scots coming south were a thing. Voting Tory for the first time for many middle class Scots seems to be the equivalent of getting a permanent residence pass to stay in England. Seems that way to me |
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Post by Wisconsin on Aug 4, 2023 12:16:02 GMT
As long as one of the major parties wants a byelection, a succesful recall petition is now a nailed on certainty if the privileges committee gives a ten day suspension. And any MP who faces such a byelection is likely to be judged as having brought this election about and so will face a steep (and I think so far unsurmounted) hurdle to re-election. Although an outright partisan tilt on the privileges committee may become hard to enforce - and has not come about yet - this suggests that the committee now has a lot of power and that they will use it to punish MPs who are outsiders and protect insiders, which is harder to lay out than a straight partisan tilt. The difference between the treatment of Boris Johnson and Bernard Jenkins may prove to be an illustration of this. Perhaps this will over time be eroded as perceived abuses of process by the privileges committee get more cut through. Or perhaps the privileges committee will slowly slough off the more partisan or more aggressively blobby members such as Harman. I still think recall is a useful tool for voters over their representatives, but unless the privileges committee can show that they aren't going to be an insiders' enforcement club then either they should lose their gatekeeper role or there needs to be an awareness raising effort about the privileges committee's alignment with the blob. The comparison between Johnson and Jenkins is absurd. |
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aargauer
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Post by aargauer on Aug 4, 2023 12:18:48 GMT
well, yes and no. I would suggest another factor was the close links between the Catholic Church and the Labour Party. There had been scores of Catholic Tory candidates in the past but none got elected. That's not because the Tory party didn't want them elected, it's because voters didn't. Anecdotally I'm noticing that among Scottish Catholics that church going does still seem to correlate closely to whether you are a Labour voter and non church going to SNP, although I suspect when you allow for age much but not all of the difference will disappear. Also anecdotally Scots who go south of the border seem to become Tory at an amazing rate. And that's been going on for as long as I was aware that Scots coming south were a thing. Voting Tory for the first time for many middle class Scots seems to be the equivalent of getting a permanent residence pass to stay in England. Do you have cause and effect the right way around? Is it not that Tories choose disproportionately to go? |
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Post by uthacalthing on Aug 4, 2023 12:38:40 GMT
That too, but also what he said
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Post by finsobruce on Aug 4, 2023 12:40:34 GMT
As long as one of the major parties wants a byelection, a succesful recall petition is now a nailed on certainty if the privileges committee gives a ten day suspension. And any MP who faces such a byelection is likely to be judged as having brought this election about and so will face a steep (and I think so far unsurmounted) hurdle to re-election. Although an outright partisan tilt on the privileges committee may become hard to enforce - and has not come about yet - this suggests that the committee now has a lot of power and that they will use it to punish MPs who are outsiders and protect insiders, which is harder to lay out than a straight partisan tilt. The difference between the treatment of Boris Johnson and Bernard Jenkins may prove to be an illustration of this. Perhaps this will over time be eroded as perceived abuses of process by the privileges committee get more cut through. Or perhaps the privileges committee will slowly slough off the more partisan or more aggressively blobby members such as Harman. I still think recall is a useful tool for voters over their representatives, but unless the privileges committee can show that they aren't going to be an insiders' enforcement club then either they should lose their gatekeeper role or there needs to be an awareness raising effort about the privileges committee's alignment with the blob. The comparison between Johnson and Jenkins is absurd. Especially as he's actually called Jenkin.  |
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right
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Post by right on Aug 4, 2023 14:01:25 GMT
As long as one of the major parties wants a byelection, a succesful recall petition is now a nailed on certainty if the privileges committee gives a ten day suspension. And any MP who faces such a byelection is likely to be judged as having brought this election about and so will face a steep (and I think so far unsurmounted) hurdle to re-election. Although an outright partisan tilt on the privileges committee may become hard to enforce - and has not come about yet - this suggests that the committee now has a lot of power and that they will use it to punish MPs who are outsiders and protect insiders, which is harder to lay out than a straight partisan tilt. The difference between the treatment of Boris Johnson and Bernard Jenkins may prove to be an illustration of this. Perhaps this will over time be eroded as perceived abuses of process by the privileges committee get more cut through. Or perhaps the privileges committee will slowly slough off the more partisan or more aggressively blobby members such as Harman. I still think recall is a useful tool for voters over their representatives, but unless the privileges committee can show that they aren't going to be an insiders' enforcement club then either they should lose their gatekeeper role or there needs to be an awareness raising effort about the privileges committee's alignment with the blob. The comparison between Johnson and Jenkins is absurd. Let's see if he's Keired of all involvement - or gets a 9 day 22 hour suspension - for his (worse) lockdown breach by his committee colleagues |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Aug 4, 2023 14:48:08 GMT
As long as one of the major parties wants a byelection, a succesful recall petition is now a nailed on certainty if the privileges committee gives a ten day suspension. And any MP who faces such a byelection is likely to be judged as having brought this election about and so will face a steep (and I think so far unsurmounted) hurdle to re-election. Although an outright partisan tilt on the privileges committee may become hard to enforce - and has not come about yet - this suggests that the committee now has a lot of power and that they will use it to punish MPs who are outsiders and protect insiders, which is harder to lay out than a straight partisan tilt. The difference between the treatment of Boris Johnson and Bernard Jenkins may prove to be an illustration of this. Perhaps this will over time be eroded as perceived abuses of process by the privileges committee get more cut through. Or perhaps the privileges committee will slowly slough off the more partisan or more aggressively blobby members such as Harman. I still think recall is a useful tool for voters over their representatives, but unless the privileges committee can show that they aren't going to be an insiders' enforcement club then either they should lose their gatekeeper role or there needs to be an awareness raising effort about the privileges committee's alignment with the blob. Not only is this incorrect, but this specific by-election is an example of that - the Tories and the SNP member on the committee voted for a shorter suspension for Ferrier, it was the lay members whose votes were decisive in ensuring a suspension long enough to trigger recall. |
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Post by Wisconsin on Aug 4, 2023 18:17:31 GMT
The comparison between Johnson and Jenkin is absurd. Let's see if he's Keired of all involvement - or gets a 9 day 22 hour suspension - for his (worse) lockdown breach by his committee colleagues Has he repeated lied to Parliament about his breach? Or travelled through time to leak the outcome? Absurd comparison. |
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Post by Ron Swanson on Aug 4, 2023 18:58:17 GMT
I think the pro Johnson crowd are too far gone.
Much like the Trump supporters who wanted Mike Pence killed for daring to abide by the constitution.
I wonder what it would take for them to turn…
Considering Johnson appointed a known sexual predator to a key position, a man so incapable of controlling himself that he needed minders to accompany him anywhere that alcohol was present.
No mid manager in a company would survive such a shambles, even if they were honest about their errors.
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Post by uthacalthing on Aug 4, 2023 20:05:09 GMT
No mid manager in a company would survive such a shambles, even if they were honest about their errors. Deputy Heads must roll |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Aug 4, 2023 22:06:29 GMT
No mid manager in a company would survive such a shambles, even if they were honest about their errors. Deputy Heads must roll Done my part, I shot the sheriff |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2023 0:21:38 GMT
I think the pro Johnson crowd are too far gone. Much like the Trump supporters who wanted Mike Pence killed for daring to abide by the constitution. I wonder what it would take for them to turn… Considering Johnson appointed a known sexual predator to a key position, a man so incapable of controlling himself that he needed minders to accompany him anywhere that alcohol was present. No mid manager in a company would survive such a shambles, even if they were honest about their errors. No one here equates to those who wanted Pence lynched. You know that. |
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Post by andrew on Aug 5, 2023 11:58:40 GMT
I’m not sure who I’d vote for in this by-election in the constituency. I don’t appreciate how the SNP have thrown Margaret under the bus.
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Post by batman on Aug 5, 2023 13:52:04 GMT
it was a train
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Aug 5, 2023 14:05:04 GMT
Maybe it was identifying as a bus.
After all buses have identified as trains.
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right
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Post by right on Aug 5, 2023 15:34:44 GMT
I think the pro Johnson crowd are too far gone. Much like the Trump supporters who wanted Mike Pence killed for daring to abide by the constitution. I wonder what it would take for them to turn… Considering Johnson appointed a known sexual predator to a key position, a man so incapable of controlling himself that he needed minders to accompany him anywhere that alcohol was present. No mid manager in a company would survive such a shambles, even if they were honest about their errors. The privileges committee wasn't about Pincher, so if it was applying penalties on that basis it was clearly wrong Although applying principles of natural justice to The Committee That Can't Be Criticised should rightly be labelled as naive |
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Post by uthacalthing on Aug 5, 2023 18:19:10 GMT
As with Trump, Johnson is quite clearly guilty, but I am not clear on what he is guilty of. He is one of those people who I would vote guilty of perjury and not proven on the original charge.
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Sg1
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Post by Sg1 on Aug 5, 2023 18:52:22 GMT
Maybe it was identifying as a bus.
After all buses have identified as trains.
I don't think that trains are capable of such a swerve |
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Post by andrewteale on Aug 5, 2023 20:45:35 GMT
Maybe it was identifying as a bus. After all buses have identified as trains. I don't think that trains are capable of such a swerve Paris says hi.  |
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ricmk
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Post by ricmk on Aug 5, 2023 21:21:52 GMT
Oh not another thread derailed by those tedious trains rights activists.....
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