Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 4, 2022 12:36:18 GMT
I think we can all umderstand how the Baltic states in general, and Latvia in particular, have suffered under German and Russian colonialism. But this is neither here nor there. You have to start from where you are now. Yes lots of Russians moved to Estonia and Latvia during Soviet times (and indeed earlier), but they are there now, and it's their home, and they have to be accommodated. It's not their fault after all. Of course, as in other post Soviet states, there is a push to ensure that everyone can speak the national language. No-one is objecting to that. It's the deprivation of basic civil rights that sticks in my craw. What deprivation of basic civil rights? There is no right to vote without citizenship. Same as the uk. There is no jus soli citizenship. Same as the UK. There is only citizenship with local language skills. Same as the UK. When Latvia became independent all living there should have been given citizenship. But Russians had to be punished ... |
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Post by aargauer on Oct 4, 2022 12:41:21 GMT
What deprivation of basic civil rights? There is no right to vote without citizenship. Same as the uk. There is no jus soli citizenship. Same as the UK. There is only citizenship with local language skills. Same as the UK. When Latvia became independent all living there should have been given citizenship. But Russians had to be punished ... If Scotland were to become independent and I were living their without Scottish ancestry (possibly also Scottish birthplace) would I be given a Scottish passport? Genuine question. Personally I don't think people of immigrant stock should be given citizenship without language skills. |
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 4, 2022 12:44:13 GMT
There have been at least a couple of really famous Russians from Latvia - Sergei Eisenstein and Mikhail Baryshnikov.
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Post by rcronald on Oct 4, 2022 13:19:01 GMT
I agree with all the negative comments about how Russia has treated its near neighbours historically, and how that mentality is still very much with us today as Ukraine shows. Bit there is also a bit of an elephant in the room that we are dancing around, isn't there? Which is how so many in the Baltic states particularly joined the Nazi cause in WW2, and not just reluctantly on a "lesser evil" basis but often with chilling enthusiasm - especially when it came to exterminating Jews. And this aspect of their history is today often whitewashed, and on occasion actually glorified. That was the case across much of the occupied continent though. Antisemitism was/is ancient and deep rooted in the European psyche, even among some here as the last few years showed, and it'll take a long time to excise that. Though, we are, thankfully, making progress. Moreover, the glorification point is simply one side of the argument. Those people, as wicked as some of their actions were, fought to liberate their country from outside occupation and colonisation. You cannot help but understand why they are remembered therefore. Similarly, we lionise Churchill as a national saint, rightly, but I dare say many of ibfc's countrymen would take a different view. Similarly, Indians admire Gandhi, yet many black South Africans understandably have a different view. A further example would be the Irgun at the end of the Second World War. Their crimes against British soldiers and civilians are still remembered here, but are they viewed as negatively in Israel? rcronald would be able to tell us, but I doubt it. 1.Irgun are not really viewed as national heroes like left wing militias are in Israel (let’s not even talk about Lehi) 2.Irgun terrorism (almost entirely against the military and not civilians) and widespread and active support and participation in the holocaust in Lithuania and Ukraine is not even close to comparable. 3. Irgun gave us a warning to evacuate in King David and we ignored it. |
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Post by rcronald on Oct 4, 2022 13:20:55 GMT
To the Latvians, Jews were regarded as part of that Internationalist movement that had oppressed them. It was a time and a place of quite incomprehensible antisemitism. The Soviets were at it as well in Stalin's purges. And in civilized nations like the UK and USA they were largely not bothered as TBH they kind of half felt there was probably some justification. I don't believe antisemitism has gone away. The whole "capitalism ruined my life" schtick is riddled with it. TBF to the Latvians, the Lithuanians and Ukrainians were much much worse. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Oct 4, 2022 13:21:01 GMT
When Latvia became independent all living there should have been given citizenship. But Russians had to be punished ... and I were living their without Scottish ancestry (possibly also Scottish birthplace) would I be given a Scottish passport? Genuine question. Personally I don't think people of immigrant stock should be given citizenship without language skills.  |
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Post by therealriga on Oct 4, 2022 13:22:25 GMT
I agree with all the negative comments about how Russia has treated its near neighbours historically, and how that mentality is still very much with us today as Ukraine shows. But there is also a bit of an elephant in the room that we are dancing around, isn't there? Which is how so many in the Baltic states particularly joined the Nazi cause in WW2, and not just reluctantly on a "lesser evil" basis but often with chilling enthusiasm - especially when it came to exterminating Jews. And this aspect of their history is today often whitewashed, and on occasion actually glorified. I don't see anyone other than the usual ragtag bunch of fringe right groups, such as you unfortunately get in any country, glorifying that aspect of their history. As for why many enthusiastically sided with the Germans, you have to remember that Latvia pre-1940 was one of the richest countries in Europe. Indeed I believe only the UK and France had a better economic situation. The Soviets rolled in and destroyed all that overnight. One of their measures involved effectively wiping out 90% of people's savings, besides stealing their property and deporting many to Siberia. That left a scar of bitterness which survives to this day as historically minded Latvians are aware of just how well they were doing before communism and many would, not unfairly, blame their current poverty, relative to the west, firmly on the Russians. None of that of course excuses the appalling anti-semitism which took place, but I doubt they're any worse than other German occupied countries were. |
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Post by aargauer on Oct 4, 2022 13:23:43 GMT
If Scotland were to become independent and I were living their without Scottish ancestry (possibly also Scottish birthplace) would I be given a Scottish passport? Genuine question. Personally I don't think people of immigrant stock should be given citizenship without language skills. Was to become? Became? Were to become sounds ok to me, but I am no carlton43. I wouldn't require language skills at the level of the Liberal Democrats in any case. Just enough to be understood and engage in society. B2 Level. |
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r34t
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,173
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Post by r34t on Oct 4, 2022 13:35:38 GMT
Was to become? Became? Were to become sounds ok to me, but I am no carlton43 . I wouldn't require language skills at the level of the Liberal Democrats in any case. Just enough to be understood and engage in society. B2 Level. Understanding the difference between ‘their’ & ‘there’ would be a good start. Primary school stuff. |
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Post by rcronald on Oct 4, 2022 13:36:57 GMT
The thing that differentiated Ukrainians/Lithuanians from the rest of the collaborators was their blood (and vulva) lust and support at the grassroots level.
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Post by aargauer on Oct 4, 2022 13:38:16 GMT
Was to become? Became? Were to become sounds ok to me, but I am no carlton43 . I wouldn't require language skills at the level of the Liberal Democrats in any case. Just enough to be understood and engage in society. B2 Level. Understanding the difference between ‘their’ & ‘there’ would be a good start. Primary school stuff. Sure. That i do get but it wasn't highlighted, so I presumed I was let off that mistake. |
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Post by aargauer on Oct 4, 2022 13:39:36 GMT
The thing that differentiated Ukrainians/Lithuanians from the rest of the collaborators was their blood (and vulva) lust and support at the grassroots level. Do you think they are still places particularly fertile to antisemitism, or has that particular disease moved onto territories new. |
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Post by rcronald on Oct 4, 2022 13:43:43 GMT
The thing that differentiated Ukrainians/Lithuanians from the rest of the collaborators was their blood (and vulva) lust and support at the grassroots level. m Do you think they are still places particularly fertile to antisemitism, or has that particular disease moved onto territories new. Ukraine is still glorifying them, so yes. It has also moved to new territories, like Bradford and Tower Hamlets. 😉 Btw, even Israel gave the Arabs who remained after 48 citizenship without any questions asked. |
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Post by aargauer on Oct 4, 2022 13:48:01 GMT
m Do you think they are still places particularly fertile to antisemitism, or has that particular disease moved onto territories new. Ukraine is still glorifying them, so yes. It has also moved to new territories, like Bradford and Tower Hamlets. 😉 Btw, even Israel gave the Arabs who remained after 48 citizenship without any questions asked. The creation of Israel is a rather different matter though. In the sense that the Arabs given rights had lived their since time immemorial, rather than being immigrants or the descendants of recent immigrants. So would not have been entitled to any other citizenship in most cases. |
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Post by rcronald on Oct 4, 2022 13:49:15 GMT
Ukraine is still glorifying them, so yes. It has also moved to new territories, like Bradford and Tower Hamlets. 😉 Btw, even Israel gave the Arabs who remained after 48 citizenship without any questions asked. The creation of Israel is a rather different matter though. In the sense that the Arabs given rights had lived their since time immemorial, rather than being immigrants or the descendants of recent immigrants. Most of the Arabs arrived like 1 or 2 hundred years before. |
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Post by aargauer on Oct 4, 2022 13:53:32 GMT
The creation of Israel is a rather different matter though. In the sense that the Arabs given rights had lived their since time immemorial, rather than being immigrants or the descendants of recent immigrants. Most of the Arabs arrived like 1 or 2 hundred years before. Most jews being recent immigrants too, with a new National language, it's a rather unique situation without real parallel elsewhere. In the situation being more generous than usual seems fair. |
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Post by rcronald on Oct 4, 2022 13:55:45 GMT
Most of the Arabs arrived like 1 or 2 hundred years before. Most jews being recent immigrants too, with a new National language, it's a rather unique situation without real parallel elsewhere. In the situation being more generous than usual seems fair. I agree, was just annoyed by the time immoral part. 😅 |
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,025
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 4, 2022 14:06:57 GMT
On the issue of Ukrainian wartime collaboration, there is a habit of forgetting that more Ukrainians - infinitely more - fought for the Red Army than for Bandera's OUN-B: in fact the eventual victory of the Red Army on the Eastern Front would not have been possible, or even plausible, without Ukrainian troops. The lazy tendency to assume otherwise is the ur-example of Norman Davies's observation that 'they [Ukrainians] were usually presented as 'Russians' or 'Soviets' whenever they were to be praised, and as 'Ukrainians' only when they did evil'. Part of the problem, of course, is simply that Ukrainian ethnic nationalists (by the 1930s and 40s more common in Galicia than elsewhere by far) were more likely to assert their Ukrainian-ness, lending a certain sort of superficial credibility to what is actually a canard. The enthusiastic participation in the Holocaust by members of the OUN-B is the horror that it is, but it would be wrong to conflate that with 'all Ukrainians'. What happened in Lithuania was more disturbing by some margin, and to that all we can say is that sometimes societies simply go mad. In that specific instance we should also note that it would not have happened were it not known that SS troops (and one reason why it is an error to focus all the responsibility and horror on collaborators is that it removes agency and responsibility from the instigators) were going around the place rounding up and murdering all the Jews they could find. I would agree that Lithuanian society has not come to terms with what happened particularly well, but much as the Americans accidentally gave the Japanese an excuse to dodge that sort of self-examination, so did the Soviets to the Lithuanians.
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Post by therealriga on Oct 4, 2022 14:56:31 GMT
m Do you think they are still places particularly fertile to antisemitism, or has that particular disease moved onto territories new. Ukraine is still glorifying them, so yes. It has also moved to new territories, like Bradford and Tower Hamlets. 😉 Btw, even Israel gave the Arabs who remained after 48 citizenship without any questions asked. Modern Latvia would definitely be less anti-Israel than equivalent western states. Not that it's particularly pro either but the overall attitude is that Palestine/Israel is like Ethiopia/Eritrea : "not our fight/business." About 8 years ago I went along to 2 of the 3 days of the "Tel Aviv beach festival" organised in Riga with the cooperation of local Jewish groups. I was pleasantly surprised to see not a single demonstrator or Palestinian flag in sight. Such an event organised in Ireland or UK would almost certainly attract protests. www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/35211/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheBalticTimes+%28News+from+Estonia%2C+Latvia+and+Lithuania.+The+Baltic+Times.%29 |
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Post by rcronald on Oct 4, 2022 14:59:33 GMT
Ukraine is still glorifying them, so yes. It has also moved to new territories, like Bradford and Tower Hamlets. 😉 Btw, even Israel gave the Arabs who remained after 48 citizenship without any questions asked. Modern Latvia would definitely be less anti-Israel than equivalent western states. Not that it's particularly pro either but the overall attitude is that Palestine/Israel is like Ethiopia/Eritrea : "not our fight/business." About 8 years ago I went along to 2 of the 3 days of the "Tel Aviv beach festival" organised in Riga with the cooperation of local Jewish groups. I was pleasantly surprised to see not a single demonstrator or Palestinian flag in sight. Such an event organised in Ireland or UK would almost certainly attract protests. www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/35211/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheBalticTimes+%28News+from+Estonia%2C+Latvia+and+Lithuania.+The+Baltic+Times.%29 I was very careful to not put Latvia in the same tier with Ukraine for a reason. |
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