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Post by rcronald on Oct 2, 2022 18:02:23 GMT
And it is that decision which was not acceptable. It's the decision of the Russians to invade, deport and murder anyone who opposed them, then spend a half century trying to impose their culture which is what was not acceptable. The civil societies in the Baltics decided to reverse that and take a course away from Russia. The Uzbeks, Kazakhs and Kyrgyz chose to maintain closer links with Moscow. From where I'm sitting the first group of three countries are doing infinitely better as a result of that choice than the latter three. And if we're to talk about human rights, the rights and freedoms of ethnic Russians in the Baltics is infinitely better than it is in Central Asia. I would have ranted against the first statement if you were Lithuanian or Ukrainian, but since you are Latvian the hypocrisy is not that bad.... |
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Post by therealriga on Oct 2, 2022 18:04:15 GMT
Why? They broke away precisely because they didn't want to be the same. Why should being a former anything mean standardisation of vastly culturally different societies? Should Algeria, Syria and Vietnam as former French colonies all follow each other? Latvian nationalism is an unpleasant beast....and they have the nerve to criticize the Russians Maybe I've missed something, but the Latvians are not currently engaged in a violent war of conquest in their southern neighbour? If you think a portion of Russian society here being unable to vote because they've been too lazy in 3 decades to learn the official language is remotely equivalent to indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas in Kyiv, massacres such as Bucha etc then I truly don't know what to say to you. The average person here has vastly more freedom (including freedom of speech, freedom of the press, right to criticise the government, freedom of religion, academic freedom, freedom of assembly etc) than they do in the big country to the east. So yes, I think they do have the right to criticise the Russians. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 2, 2022 18:07:52 GMT
Part of the reason that Latvians (and Estonians) want to impose knowledge of their language is because Latvian speakers were functionally excluded from most skilled jobs, administrative and leadership roles for a long time. Estonia had a term "Yestonian", to describe a cohort of Russians of semi-Estonian descent sent to rule the country (the name comes from their tendency to pronounce "e" as "ye").
Not sure that makes the citizenship point the right call, but context is important.
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Post by rcronald on Oct 2, 2022 18:13:19 GMT
Part of the reason that Latvians (and Estonians) want to impose knowledge of their language is because Latvian speakers were functionally excluded from most skilled jobs, administrative and leadership roles for a long time. Estonia had a term "Yestonian", to describe a cohort of Russians of semi-Estonian descent sent to rule the country (the name comes from their tendency to pronounce "e" as "ye"). Not sure that makes the citizenship point the right call, but context is important. I think requiring being fluent in Latvian for a government job would have been more than enough, but completely understand their historical desire. |
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Post by aargauer on Oct 2, 2022 18:14:05 GMT
I will never ever understand why much of the hard left sympathises with an ultranationalist European country which has colonised Siberia and Muslim areas like Dagestan as well as the the Far East, and had previously colonised Central Asia and Central Europe and routinely attacks its neighbours.
And instead in this instance criticises a very small democratic country where 3/4 of the resident ethnic Russians are citizens, all have freedom of speech, and those who aren't citizens have a clear pathway to citizenship.
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Post by aargauer on Oct 2, 2022 18:15:41 GMT
Part of the reason that Latvians (and Estonians) want to impose knowledge of their language is because Latvian speakers were functionally excluded from most skilled jobs, administrative and leadership roles for a long time. Estonia had a term "Yestonian", to describe a cohort of Russians of semi-Estonian descent sent to rule the country (the name comes from their tendency to pronounce "e" as "ye"). Not sure that makes the citizenship point the right call, but context is important. I think requiring being fluent in Latvian for a government job would have been more than enough, but completely understand their historical desire. That's like asking why Germany has German as a sole national language. |
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Post by rcronald on Oct 2, 2022 18:16:00 GMT
I will never ever understand why much of the hard left sympathises with an ultranationalist European country which has colonised Siberia and Muslim areas like Dagestan as well as the the Far East, and had previously colonised Central Asia and Central Europe and routinely attacks its neighbours. And instead in this instance criticises a very small democratic country where 3/4 of the resident ethnic Russians are citizens, all have freedom of speech, and those who aren't citizens have a clear pathway to citizenship. I think Merseymike expects more from western-oriented nations like the Baltics and Israel. |
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Post by rcronald on Oct 2, 2022 18:16:31 GMT
I think requiring being fluent in Latvian for a government job would have been more than enough, but completely understand their historical desire. That's like asking why Germany has German as a sole national language. I'm talking about citizenship |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 2, 2022 18:18:54 GMT
I will never ever understand why much of the hard left sympathises with an ultranationalist European country which has colonised Siberia and Muslim areas like Dagestan as well as the the Far East, and had previously colonised Central Asia and Central Europe and routinely attacks its neighbours. And instead in this instance criticises a very small democratic country where 3/4 of the resident ethnic Russians are citizens, all have freedom of speech, and those who aren't citizens have a clear pathway to citizenship. I don't have any problem criticising either. And I did not and do not agree with Latvia in this instance. It is the determination to punish Russia which has caused so many problems - I don't think that had to happen and it has not been beneficial. |
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Post by aargauer on Oct 2, 2022 18:19:36 GMT
That's like asking why Germany has German as a sole national language. I'm talking about citizenship Sure, but you need to speak German to get a German passport if you aren't of German descent. |
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Post by rcronald on Oct 2, 2022 18:24:12 GMT
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 2, 2022 18:39:20 GMT
I'm talking about citizenship Sure, but you need to speak German to get a German passport if you aren't of German descent. Interestingly, Germany's most popular singer, Helene Fischer, is actually Jelena Fischerova from Krasnoyarsk (descendent of deported Black Sea Germans). |
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Post by yellowperil on Oct 2, 2022 18:51:29 GMT
It's a secret ballot. He is not required to answer that question. |
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Post by therealriga on Oct 2, 2022 19:15:07 GMT
I didn't. As a British and Irish citizen I'm ineligible to vote in parliamentary elections and referenda, but can vote in municipals and European parliament ones. I could go through the citizenship process but that would require a better level of Latvian than my laziness has thus far permitted. Not a deal breaker, but giving up the 2 previous citizenships as I'm not in the category who can hold multiple citizenships as well as Latvian is a deal breaker. My wife, to my surprise voted for Greens and Farmers (ZZS). She's been highly irritated by the outgoing coalition (mainly Unity's) economic policies on small business taxes and Covid lockdowns (she's not anti-vax, but thinks they went too far.) ZZS were offering a more favourable, i.e. lower, small business tax and had criticised the lockdowns as going too far without going into the whackier conspiracy elements which some of the populists pushed. She thinks the National Alliance are too Latvian nationalist and the Conservatives delivered little for their so-called anti-corruption crusade and thinks they were, for personal and vindictive reasons, victimising the leader of ZZS (a corrupt oligarch, yes, she agrees, but far from the worst and she shares the view of him as a type of oligarch Robin Hood who gives back to society unlike the other oligarchs.) She dislikes the populist parties and wouldn't vote for the Russophone ones and thinks Progressives bang on too much about LGBT issues (not something she opposes, but she says there are bigger issues.) So a mix of self-interest vote and protest vote. I expect, given the increased vote for ZZS, that many others thought the same. |
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Post by therealriga on Oct 2, 2022 19:26:08 GMT
The final result:
Unity (JV) 26 (+18)
Greens Farmers (ZZS) 16 (+5)
United List (AS) 15 (new - though 4 existing deputies elected as ZZS)
National Alliance 13 (=)
Stability 11 (new)
Progressives 10 (+10)
Latvia First (LPV) 9 (new)
3 of the 4 largest parties from last time lost all their seats and the other disintegrated.
I expect a coalition of Unity, United List and National Alliance.
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 2, 2022 19:32:15 GMT
I will never ever understand why much of the hard left sympathises with an ultranationalist European country which has colonised Siberia and Muslim areas like Dagestan as well as the the Far East, and had previously colonised Central Asia and Central Europe and routinely attacks its neighbours. And instead in this instance criticises a very small democratic country where 3/4 of the resident ethnic Russians are citizens, all have freedom of speech, and those who aren't citizens have a clear pathway to citizenship. Because they are basically Stalinists in every sense of the word.
The other curious thing is why the only people on this Forum who are remotely sympathetic to the Russian 'cause' are on the right.This would never have been the case forty years ago.
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Post by grahammurray on Oct 2, 2022 19:35:49 GMT
I will never ever understand why much of the hard left sympathises with an ultranationalist European country which has colonised Siberia and Muslim areas like Dagestan as well as the the Far East, and had previously colonised Central Asia and Central Europe and routinely attacks its neighbours. And instead in this instance criticises a very small democratic country where 3/4 of the resident ethnic Russians are citizens, all have freedom of speech, and those who aren't citizens have a clear pathway to citizenship. Can you remind us all which party created the current Baron Siberia? |
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Post by aargauer on Oct 2, 2022 20:08:12 GMT
I will never ever understand why much of the hard left sympathises with an ultranationalist European country which has colonised Siberia and Muslim areas like Dagestan as well as the the Far East, and had previously colonised Central Asia and Central Europe and routinely attacks its neighbours. And instead in this instance criticises a very small democratic country where 3/4 of the resident ethnic Russians are citizens, all have freedom of speech, and those who aren't citizens have a clear pathway to citizenship. Can you remind us all which party created the current Baron Siberia? I don't speak on behalf of the Conservative Party, just myself. Honestly I don't know enough about Lebedev to comment. He is British though, and deserves to be treated as such. I do know though from my personal life that senior people from dictatorships often send their children abroad for their own safety. |
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Oct 3, 2022 0:20:07 GMT
I will never ever understand why much of the hard left sympathises with an ultranationalist European country which has colonised Siberia and Muslim areas like Dagestan as well as the the Far East, and had previously colonised Central Asia and Central Europe and routinely attacks its neighbours. And instead in this instance criticises a very small democratic country where 3/4 of the resident ethnic Russians are citizens, all have freedom of speech, and those who aren't citizens have a clear pathway to citizenship. I don't have any problem criticising either. And I did not and do not agree with Latvia in this instance. It is the determination to punish Russia which has caused so many problems - I don't think that had to happen and it has not been beneficial. Was Canada anti-British when it removed the right of vote from British subjects in the 60's? |
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Post by ibfc on Oct 3, 2022 1:01:28 GMT
I will never ever understand why much of the hard left sympathises with an ultranationalist European country which has colonised Siberia and Muslim areas like Dagestan as well as the the Far East, and had previously colonised Central Asia and Central Europe and routinely attacks its neighbours. And instead in this instance criticises a very small democratic country where 3/4 of the resident ethnic Russians are citizens, all have freedom of speech, and those who aren't citizens have a clear pathway to citizenship. Because they are basically Stalinists in every sense of the word.
The other curious thing is why the only people on this Forum who are remotely sympathetic to the Russian 'cause' are on the right.This would never have been the case forty years ago.
Well, Russia is explicitly positioning itself as a reactionary force. It would be odd for people on the Left to sympathise with her. |
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