Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
|
Post by Richard Allen on Sept 12, 2021 17:28:30 GMT
Many on the Labour left will be very pleased to know that light hearted antisemitism is fine. It was as much antisemitism as "Irish jokes" are anti-Irish, i.e not at all. |
|
|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Sept 12, 2021 17:52:57 GMT
"historically" is a blatant cop-out as we're much older than you are. Of course there was lots of antisemitism in the 19th century. Though, I'd add that we had an ethnically Jewish PM at a time when parts of Europe were still massacring its Jewish populations. Antisemitism has also been prevalent in the Labour Party from its very foundation, from Hardie, to Bevan to Corbyn. Antisemitism used to be a thing in the Conservative Party, but isn't any more. This is because of three reasons in my view. First, no one in their right mind these days believes in racial science or in intrinsic inferiority. Second, the casual posh prejudice against Jews has largely gone too, as has Tory Arabism. Third, the modern visceral forms of Western antisemitism, largely confined to followers of anti-zionism and anti-capitalism, are completely antithetical to the Conservatives. Modern Tory antisemitism is a manufactured strawman to make the socialists feel better about their own side's prejudiced hatreds. First a direct reference to the point I made about Currie. I wasn’t alone in my assumption. www.jta.org/archive/british-tv-show-explores-government-anti-semitism-the-jewish-chronicleThen a couple of recent instances. www.theguardian.com/news/2021/feb/08/tory-council-candidate-deselected-antisemitic-tweet-to-jewish-labour-mp-charlotte-nicholswww.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/tory-councillor-suspended-anti-semitic-21062270Really this is a continuing blight in most parties. I encountered it in my early political life in Cambridge where a Conservative fellow councillor had some uncomfortable experiences with the casual language of some of her unreconstructed colleagues - my reference to history was qualified by ‘in my experience’ - 47 years of politics. Highlighted because they make two important points. There are bad people in all parties often highlighted by racism, anti-semitism and sexism. And homophobia. |
|
|
|
Post by Merseymike on Sept 12, 2021 18:42:00 GMT
You are making rather more of this than I’d expected. You’ll find a useful summary giving a history of anti-semitism in the Conservative Party on Wikipedia (and you’ll find there a reference to Currie) and a google search on this will throw up some recent examples. If you can’t find these I’ll post some references. I’m surprised that my remark is seen as contentious since I readily concede that Labour has had this problem too (on a smaller scale, historically, in my experience but I don’t think that is any excuse). "historically" is a blatant cop-out as we're much older than you are. Of course there was lots of antisemitism in the 19th century. Though, I'd add that we had an ethnically Jewish PM at a time when parts of Europe were still massacring its Jewish populations. Antisemitism has also been prevalent in the Labour Party from its very foundation, from Hardie, to Bevan to Corbyn. Antisemitism used to be a thing in the Conservative Party, but isn't any more. This is because of three reasons in my view. First, no one in their right mind these days believes in racial science or in intrinsic inferiority. Second, the casual posh prejudice against Jews has largely gone too, as has Tory Arabism. Third, the modern visceral forms of Western antisemitism, largely confined to followers of anti-zionism and anti-capitalism, are completely antithetical to the Conservatives. Modern Tory antisemitism is a manufactured strawman to make the socialists feel better about their own side's prejudiced hatreds. The Tory party is far more pro Israel than Labour , though it's leadership would like that to be otherwise. But as we know, being opposed to Israeli policy and the current state is not anti-Semitic - except the Israel lobby actually believes the opposite. I certainly think we need a party of the left which committed Zionists would not wish to join. |
|
J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,759 
|
Post by J.G.Harston on Sept 13, 2021 8:45:19 GMT
Many on the Labour left will be very pleased to know that light hearted antisemitism is fine. It was an observation of how quite clearly not anti Semitic the Tory party was and is It is a party of snobs and social climbers There is plenty there to mock but still the left continue to plough the same wrong furrows like wittering on about selling off the NHS That. A lot of what people point to as racism or anti-ethnic-groupism is plain classism. We can't have Solly in the golf club, he's in TRADE for goodness sake! Have you met Dr Rishakramati, the new member? He's a surgeon. Private practice of course, doing well. |
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
|
Post by The Bishop on Sept 13, 2021 11:10:16 GMT
Some on the left make the mistaken claim that because someone is wholly or partly of Jewish extraction, they can't possibly be guilty of AS.
The similar mistake on the right is to think this true of anyone who claims to be "pro-Israel".
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
|
Post by The Bishop on Sept 13, 2021 11:42:17 GMT
My point is that is still very much a sentiment to be found on the far/alt-right, even if not the mainstream.
|
|
cogload
Lib Dem
I jumped in the river and what did I see...
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by cogload on Oct 22, 2021 18:03:08 GMT
If the adage of "wrote what you know" is applied to Ms Currie's tomes then..well...
|
|
neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
|
Post by neilm on Oct 22, 2021 19:12:29 GMT
If the adage of "wrote what you know" is applied to Ms Currie's tomes then..well... It's obvious who Stalker and Dickson are, but I've often wondered who the Environment Secretary is. By 'often', I mean when I first read it in the 90s and once or twice when Currie has appeared on the box. |
|
|
|
Post by rcronald on Oct 26, 2021 4:23:11 GMT
I think that it is fair to say that there was more anti-semitism among the Tory populous (and benches) until the late 70s early 80s (there were of course anti semites in the Lab benches, most famously Bevin) and by the mid 2000s anti-Semitism was overwhelmingly a left wing (far left) thing.
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
|
Post by The Bishop on Oct 26, 2021 11:52:31 GMT
Firstly, the far left made it impossible for them to organize. Secondly, the far left gave them an anti-Semitic home. Almost none of the Labour people disciplined/expelled for AS in recent years had previous far right/alt-right backgrounds. Many had been left wing activists going back decades. Yes, the left has an AS problem - but its generally a type of AS distinct from the far right variety. |
|
sirbenjamin
IFP
True fame is reading your name written in graffiti, but without the words 'is a wanker' after it.
Posts: 4,979
|
Post by sirbenjamin on Oct 28, 2021 22:43:30 GMT
My point is that is still very much a sentiment to be found on the far/alt-right, even if not the mainstream. my point is and has been across many threads that in the UK there is to all intents and purposes no longer a far-right. Firstly, the far left made it impossible for them to organize. Secondly, the far left gave them an anti-Semitic home. 'far right' was always a lie/strawman. The defining, fundamental features of being 'right wing' are, essentially, being pro-individual, pro-free market and anti-big state. Therefore, logically, the 'far' right should be *very* pro-individual and *extremely* pro-free market and *ultra* anti-big state. But, of course, this isn't true because the so-called 'far right' are nothing of the sort and this is obvious to anyone who has done even a modicum of analysis. Personally I'd like to see us reclaim the term from the lying left. |
|
|
|
Post by mick745 on Nov 25, 2021 10:06:36 GMT
It does seem unlikely but Major having to resign due to an extramarital affair would have led to even greater disaster in 1997, a party/government that couldnt get its act together anyway would have been further undermined by the instability caused by a change in leadership. I dont think it would have mattered who became leader instead, none of them would have laid a glove on Blair, the country's psyche had moved on and many tory backbenchers knew the game was up and werent even trying anymore. If anything the Tories would have had even more infighting from 95-97 if someone had "done the dirty" on Major.
|
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Nov 25, 2021 14:43:17 GMT
It does seem unlikely but Major having to resign due to an extramarital affair would have led to even greater disaster in 1997, a party/government that couldnt get its act together anyway would have been further undermined by the instability caused by a change in leadership. I dont think it would have mattered who became leader instead, none of them would have laid a glove on Blair, the country's psyche had moved on and many tory backbenchers knew the game was up and werent even trying anymore. If anything the Tories would have had even more infighting from 95-97 if someone had "done the dirty" on Major. It is a bit odd that the 'secret' did not break earlier as many just must have known. Having said that I know of no one who has ever confirmed that they did know of it at the time. And I still cannot believe that this such odd pairing took place! It was a complete shock to me. |
|
|
|
Post by johnloony on Nov 25, 2021 22:18:05 GMT
It is a bit odd that the 'secret' did not break earlier as many just must have known..... I doubt if anybody did. If people had known, it would have leaked (or been hinted at) earlier. I am not aware of anyone ever having even hinted about it before Currie herself said it happened. |
|
neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
|
Post by neilm on Nov 28, 2021 20:09:15 GMT
I doubt if anybody did. If people had known, it would have leaked (or been hinted at) earlier. I am not aware of anyone ever having even hinted about it before Currie herself said it happened. It is odd. They must have been very meticulous about not being seen in public together. Indeed, who'd want to be seen in public with John Major? |
|
|
|
Post by therealriga on Nov 29, 2021 10:13:19 GMT
Sort of ironic that Spitting Image invented an affair for him, albeit with Virginia Bottomley. I suspect that was just to make him more interesting rather than because they'd heard a rumour. Art unwittingly imitating life.
|
|
