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Post by hullenedge on Sept 3, 2021 11:01:53 GMT
Safe choices. Centre of the party etc. May have limited the anti-Tory tactical voting in 1997. But were the voters targeting the party rather than the leader, so might it not have made as much difference? The party but the leader had lost authority. A different leader could have retained a few more seats but not have stopped that crushing defeat. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Sept 3, 2021 11:09:49 GMT
I would quite possibly have voted Labour in 1997 had Heseltine been Conservative leader 1997 leaders would have made no difference to me, but 2019 it made a difference as I couldn't bring myself to vote for either Corbyn or Johnson. Difficult leaders could have swung my vote either party. |
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nodealbrexiteer
Forum Regular
non aligned favour no deal brexit!
Posts: 4,447
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Sept 3, 2021 11:28:04 GMT
I would quite possibly have voted Labour in 1997 had Heseltine been Conservative leader 1997 leaders would have made no difference to me, but 2019 it made a difference as I couldn't bring myself to vote for either Corbyn or Johnson. Difficult leaders could have swung my vote either party. Makes sense, i could force myself to vote for a Johnson led party but not a May or Cameron-particularly the latter  |
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Post by carlton43 on Sept 3, 2021 14:04:28 GMT
The thing to remember here is that Major (somewhat to his subsequent regret) set the whole thing rolling with his 1993 conference "back to basics" speech - which was within a matter of hours being spun as "rolling back the pernicious legacy of the permissive 1960s" and by some right wingers even more crudely as a war on single mums and similar "immoral" types. In that context, his being revealed as having a long standing affair (with a prominent fellow Tory to boot) might well not have been survivable for him. I would add, from my own knowledge, that the revelation that the other party was Currie would have done him further harm. She attracted startling antipathy, particularly among the more eurosceptic Tories (as she was strongly pro-EU at that time) but wider for what I always presumed were sexist (loud, assertive woman) and, I'm afraid, anti-semitic reasons. You are completely correct in all those assumptions. She was heartily loathed by nearly every sector and wing of the party for the many reasons you give. No one could understand her preferment. If it had come out at the time it would have caused him and his clique and what we now term Remainers huge and well deserved damage and might have triggered the internal bloodbath and the Brexit moves much earlier. Heseltine was also heartily loathed for similar reasons by all the same factions so it would not have advanced his cause one whit. He had significant parliamentary support at that time but very small support in the membership. He was in fact loathed more than she was. Portillo unfortunately was also significantly disliked in the parliamentary party but more popular in the membership, but even in the membership there was quite an old-fashioned 'not another wop pretender like Profumo please'! Surprisingly strong then in the grass roots. The party was different then. |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Sept 3, 2021 17:01:02 GMT
Hezza might well have made the defeat less bad, though it shouldn't be forgotten a section of the Tory right utterly despised him and would have been out for him from the off. But......Portillo? There's a reason why that "quickie" book about the 1997 GE was called what it was. Back then, he was genuinely loathed. Douglas Hurd or Malcolm Rifkind could have emerged as PM. Hurd was a bit embroiled in an aid/arms storm in a teacup and would probably have retired from frontline politics for personal reasons, much like he did in reality. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Sept 3, 2021 20:03:59 GMT
The thing to remember here is that Major (somewhat to his subsequent regret) set the whole thing rolling with his 1993 conference "back to basics" speech - which was within a matter of hours being spun as "rolling back the pernicious legacy of the permissive 1960s" and by some right wingers even more crudely as a war on single mums and similar "immoral" types. In that context, his being revealed as having a long standing affair (with a prominent fellow Tory to boot) might well not have been survivable for him. I would add, from my own knowledge, that the revelation that the other party was Currie would have done him further harm. She attracted startling antipathy, particularly among the more eurosceptic Tories (as she was strongly pro-EU at that time) but wider for what I always presumed were sexist (loud, assertive woman) and, I'm afraid, anti-semitic reasons. Why do you presume either of those things? She was latterly primarily unpopular as you say for her strident Euro enthusiasm (which she seems to have shed now) but prior to that the hostility was based on her embodying the worst of the nannying tendency with her anti-smoking crusades etc. That was certainly the basis of my hostility towards her but while that may be a trait which can be more common in women, and which they sometimes display in a more irritating manner, I remember being equally hostile to others of that tendency such as John Gummer (admittedly an honorary old woman) and Roger Sims who is probably not remembered for much at all and wasn't much known at the time, but who I also remember as an advocate of restrictions on smoking. So what you describe as 'assertive' was generally perceived rather as bossy and that was not really to do with her being a woman. As to the anti-semitic reasons you 'presume' I am not aware that was an issue at all at the time. Sure there may have been some Conservatives of the old patrician Arabist school who were hostile for those reasons, but the late 80s and early 90s is when I was most active in the Conservative party and I never encountered that kind of attitude. Sounds like you're imagining something to fit your own prejudices there. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Sept 3, 2021 20:09:11 GMT
I would add, from my own knowledge, that the revelation that the other party was Currie would have done him further harm. She attracted startling antipathy, particularly among the more eurosceptic Tories (as she was strongly pro-EU at that time) but wider for what I always presumed were sexist (loud, assertive woman) and, I'm afraid, anti-semitic reasons. Why do you presume either of those things? She was latterly primarily unpopular as you say for her strident Euro enthusiasm (which she seems to have shed now) but prior to that the hostility was based on her embodying the worst of the nannying tendency with her anti-smoking crusades etc. That was certainly the basis of my hostility towards her but while that may be a trait which can be more common in women, and which they sometimes display in a more irritating manner, I remember being equally hostile to others of that tendency such as John Gummer (admittedly an honorary old woman) and Roger Sims who is probably not remembered for much at all and wasn't much known at the time, but who I also remember as an advocate of restrictions on smoking. So what you describe as 'assertive' was generally perceived rather as bossy and that was not really to do with her being a woman. As to the anti-semitic reasons you 'presume' I am not aware that was an issue at all at the time. Sure there may have been some Conservatives of the old patrician Arabist school who were hostile for those reasons, but the late 80s and early 90s is when I was most active in the Conservative party and I never encountered that kind of attitude. Sounds like you're imagining something to fit your own prejudices there. Was the affair before or after her stupid remarks about eggs? She was on the panel on the only occasion I ever attended a recording of Any Questions. She was awful; a mix of ignorance and populism. Not a fan. |
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nodealbrexiteer
Forum Regular
non aligned favour no deal brexit!
Posts: 4,447
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Sept 3, 2021 20:39:13 GMT
Why do you presume either of those things? She was latterly primarily unpopular as you say for her strident Euro enthusiasm (which she seems to have shed now) but prior to that the hostility was based on her embodying the worst of the nannying tendency with her anti-smoking crusades etc. That was certainly the basis of my hostility towards her but while that may be a trait which can be more common in women, and which they sometimes display in a more irritating manner, I remember being equally hostile to others of that tendency such as John Gummer (admittedly an honorary old woman) and Roger Sims who is probably not remembered for much at all and wasn't much known at the time, but who I also remember as an advocate of restrictions on smoking. So what you describe as 'assertive' was generally perceived rather as bossy and that was not really to do with her being a woman. As to the anti-semitic reasons you 'presume' I am not aware that was an issue at all at the time. Sure there may have been some Conservatives of the old patrician Arabist school who were hostile for those reasons, but the late 80s and early 90s is when I was most active in the Conservative party and I never encountered that kind of attitude. Sounds like you're imagining something to fit your own prejudices there. Was the affair before or after her stupid remarks about eggs? She was on the panel on the only occasion I ever attended a recording of Any Questions. She was awful; a mix of ignorance and populism. Not a fan. her remark was 1988ish? so could have been having the affair was going on around that time.led to jokes about Major liking to get stuck into a good Currie |
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Post by carlton43 on Sept 3, 2021 22:02:52 GMT
Why do you presume either of those things? She was latterly primarily unpopular as you say for her strident Euro enthusiasm (which she seems to have shed now) but prior to that the hostility was based on her embodying the worst of the nannying tendency with her anti-smoking crusades etc. That was certainly the basis of my hostility towards her but while that may be a trait which can be more common in women, and which they sometimes display in a more irritating manner, I remember being equally hostile to others of that tendency such as John Gummer (admittedly an honorary old woman) and Roger Sims who is probably not remembered for much at all and wasn't much known at the time, but who I also remember as an advocate of restrictions on smoking. So what you describe as 'assertive' was generally perceived rather as bossy and that was not really to do with her being a woman. As to the anti-semitic reasons you 'presume' I am not aware that was an issue at all at the time. Sure there may have been some Conservatives of the old patrician Arabist school who were hostile for those reasons, but the late 80s and early 90s is when I was most active in the Conservative party and I never encountered that kind of attitude. Sounds like you're imagining something to fit your own prejudices there. Was the affair before or after her stupid remarks about eggs? She was on the panel on the only occasion I ever attended a recording of Any Questions. She was awful; a mix of ignorance and populism. Not a fan. Neither was I. Her remarks about eggs were however entirely correct and not stupid at all. |
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 3, 2021 22:09:54 GMT
Currie was actually correct about egg production though it didn't go down well with producers.
She had very much rejected her Jewish identity - seeing it as something she left behind when she departed from Liverpool.
Undoubtedly an attention seeker - she came to public notice when she waved the handcuffs at a Tory conference and was then selected for a marginal. I'm sure that was very deliberately staged.
She certainly came over as very bossy!
She took up the gay rights cause with some enthusiasm and it's an issue she has remained consistent on, unlike almost everything else!
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Sept 11, 2021 11:57:31 GMT
So once again we have members of a party that is endemically anti Semitic alleging that the Tory party is anti Semitic in its suspicion of wet Tory ministers while carefully failing to notice that the self same non wet Tories idolised Keith Joseph Not to mention somewhat idolising Margaret Thatcher while apparently objecting to a 'loud assertive woman' for sexist reasons |
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Post by matureleft on Sept 11, 2021 12:18:51 GMT
Only someone of limited political experience would think that anti-semitism wasn't found in both major parties. In my own personal experience (but a chunk of that was in Cambridge) it seemed more prevalent in the Tory party. Both parties have nevertheless had large numbers of MPs from Jewish backgrounds.
As for sexism clearly it isn't an impervious barrier to success. But that certainly doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
On Currie I'd readily concede that there were lots of irritating facets. I observed some of them. She had some fairly progressive views for the time on gay rights and mental health. She was also a supporter of comprehensive education, as I recall. One of the most pronounced egotists I've encountered in an activity rather full of them.
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Post by matureleft on Sept 12, 2021 6:16:47 GMT
Yep and her views on gay issues which I shared probably contributed to her being disliked m But you had to try to make a case for anti Semitism Have you no shame or no brains ? Btw what do you think the right wing think of Asians ? Feel free to make another arse of yourself You are making rather more of this than I’d expected. You’ll find a useful summary giving a history of anti-semitism in the Conservative Party on Wikipedia (and you’ll find there a reference to Currie) and a google search on this will throw up some recent examples. If you can’t find these I’ll post some references. I’m surprised that my remark is seen as contentious since I readily concede that Labour has had this problem too (on a smaller scale, historically, in my experience but I don’t think that is any excuse). |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
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Post by The Bishop on Sept 12, 2021 12:37:08 GMT
I mean, the "more Estonians than Etonians" quip didn't come from Labour did it?
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Post by finsobruce on Sept 12, 2021 12:42:00 GMT
I mean, the "more Estonians than Etonians" quip didn't come from Labour did it? And here is a very interesting footnote to that quotation :
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Sept 12, 2021 15:45:50 GMT
Yep and her views on gay issues which I shared probably contributed to her being disliked m But you had to try to make a case for anti Semitism Have you no shame or no brains ? Btw what do you think the right wing think of Asians ? Feel free to make another arse of yourself You are making rather more of this than I’d expected. You’ll find a useful summary giving a history of anti-semitism in the Conservative Party on Wikipedia (and you’ll find there a reference to Currie) and a google search on this will throw up some recent examples. If you can’t find these I’ll post some references. I’m surprised that my remark is seen as contentious since I readily concede that Labour has had this problem too (on a smaller scale, historically, in my experience but I don’t think that is any excuse). "historically" is a blatant cop-out as we're much older than you are. Of course there was lots of antisemitism in the 19th century. Though, I'd add that we had an ethnically Jewish PM at a time when parts of Europe were still massacring its Jewish populations. Antisemitism has also been prevalent in the Labour Party from its very foundation, from Hardie, to Bevan to Corbyn. Antisemitism used to be a thing in the Conservative Party, but isn't any more. This is because of three reasons in my view. First, no one in their right mind these days believes in racial science or in intrinsic inferiority. Second, the casual posh prejudice against Jews has largely gone too, as has Tory Arabism. Third, the modern visceral forms of Western antisemitism, largely confined to followers of anti-zionism and anti-capitalism, are completely antithetical to the Conservatives. Modern Tory antisemitism is a manufactured strawman to make the socialists feel better about their own side's prejudiced hatreds. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Sept 12, 2021 16:01:14 GMT
You are making rather more of this than I’d expected. You’ll find a useful summary giving a history of anti-semitism in the Conservative Party on Wikipedia (and you’ll find there a reference to Currie) and a google search on this will throw up some recent examples. If you can’t find these I’ll post some references. I’m surprised that my remark is seen as contentious since I readily concede that Labour has had this problem too (on a smaller scale, historically, in my experience but I don’t think that is any excuse). "historically" is a blatant cop-out as we're much older than you are. Of course there was lots of antisemitism in the 19th century. Though, I'd add that we had an ethnically Jewish PM at a time when parts of Europe were still massacring its Jewish populations. Antisemitism has also been prevalent in the Labour Party from its very foundation, from Hardie, to Bevan to Corbyn. Antisemitism used to be a thing in the Conservative Party, but isn't any more. This is because of three reasons in my view. First, no one in their right mind these days believes in racial science or in intrinsic inferiority. Second, the casual posh prejudice against Jews has largely gone too, as has Tory Arabism. Third, the modern visceral forms of Western antisemitism, largely confined to followers of anti-zionism and anti-capitalism, are completely antithetical to the Conservatives. Modern Tory antisemitism is a manufactured strawman to make the socialists feel better about their own side's prejudiced hatreds. Antisemitism is there across the political spectrum, no party is immune to it however much people protest. |
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Sept 12, 2021 16:07:49 GMT
I mean, the "more Estonians than Etonians" quip didn't come from Labour did it? It was a light hearted quip FFS. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Sept 12, 2021 16:23:07 GMT
Many on the Labour left will be very pleased to know that light hearted antisemitism is fine.
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Post by matureleft on Sept 12, 2021 17:28:09 GMT
You are making rather more of this than I’d expected. You’ll find a useful summary giving a history of anti-semitism in the Conservative Party on Wikipedia (and you’ll find there a reference to Currie) and a google search on this will throw up some recent examples. If you can’t find these I’ll post some references. I’m surprised that my remark is seen as contentious since I readily concede that Labour has had this problem too (on a smaller scale, historically, in my experience but I don’t think that is any excuse). "historically" is a blatant cop-out as we're much older than you are. Of course there was lots of antisemitism in the 19th century. Though, I'd add that we had an ethnically Jewish PM at a time when parts of Europe were still massacring its Jewish populations. Antisemitism has also been prevalent in the Labour Party from its very foundation, from Hardie, to Bevan to Corbyn. Antisemitism used to be a thing in the Conservative Party, but isn't any more. This is because of three reasons in my view. First, no one in their right mind these days believes in racial science or in intrinsic inferiority. Second, the casual posh prejudice against Jews has largely gone too, as has Tory Arabism. Third, the modern visceral forms of Western antisemitism, largely confined to followers of anti-zionism and anti-capitalism, are completely antithetical to the Conservatives. Modern Tory antisemitism is a manufactured strawman to make the socialists feel better about their own side's prejudiced hatreds. First a direct reference to the point I made about Currie. I wasn’t alone in my assumption. www.jta.org/archive/british-tv-show-explores-government-anti-semitism-the-jewish-chronicleThen a couple of recent instances. www.theguardian.com/news/2021/feb/08/tory-council-candidate-deselected-antisemitic-tweet-to-jewish-labour-mp-charlotte-nicholswww.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/tory-councillor-suspended-anti-semitic-21062270Really this is a continuing blight in most parties. I encountered it in my early political life in Cambridge where a Conservative fellow councillor had some uncomfortable experiences with the casual language of some of her unreconstructed colleagues - my reference to history was qualified by ‘in my experience’ - 47 years of politics. |
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