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Post by Merseymike on Mar 19, 2021 19:32:08 GMT
Eh? It's purely down to the lack of democracy and the party selected the timetable. I hope the Tories win. It's the only thing which will cause Starmer and Labour sufficient harm. Corbyn stayed on after Copeland! I said cause harm....my only interest in Labour is that they move towards advancing electoral reform and for that to happen they have to believe they will lose. |
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 19, 2021 19:33:20 GMT
Eh? It's purely down to the lack of democracy and the party selected the timetable. I hope the Tories win. It's the only thing which will cause Starmer and Labour sufficient harm. Corbyn stayed on after Copeland! Oh, details, details. |
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andrea
Non-Aligned
Posts: 7,777
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Post by andrea on Mar 19, 2021 19:37:18 GMT
Going down the memory lines, here are Labour shortlists for by-elections in Labour held seats over the last decade...I miss some of them
Hartlepoo: Paul Williams
Peterborough: Lisa Forbes, Samantha Hemraj
Newport West:
Lewisham East: Janet Daby 288 votes, Sakina Sheikh 135 Claudia Webbe 35
Stoke Central:Gareth Snell, Allison Gardner, Trudie McGuinness, Stephen Hitchin (withdrawn)
Copeland: Barbara Cannon, Rachel Holliday and Gillian Troughton
Batley and Spen: Tracy Brabin, Jane Thomas
Tooting: Rosena Allin Khan, Naushabah Khan, Mike McLaughlin, Jasvir Singh, Martin Smith
Ogmore:
Sheffield Brightside: Jayne Dunn, Jayne Lim and Gill Furniss
Oldham West: Jim McMahon 232 votes, Mohammed Azam 141 votes, Chris Williamson, Jane East
Heywood and Middleton: Liz McInness, Miriam O’Reilly, Byron Taylor, Kailash Chand
South Shields: Emma Lewell-Buck. Lewis Atkinson, Paul Williams, Mark Walsh (withdrew 1 hour before the selection meeting. He was the supposed favourite).
Croydon North: Simon Burgess, Faz Hakim, Steve Reed, Val Shawcross, Louisa Woodley (Final round: Reed 96 Shawcross 93 votes)
Middlesbrough: Andy McDonald 118 votes, Joe Docherty 64, Emma France 8, Amina Ali 3, Ed Malcolm 0
Rotherham: Sarah Champion 13 votes, Sophy Gardner 12 (the exclusion of all local candidates led to a mass walkover at selection meeting. Hence the low numbers of votes cast)
Cardiff South: Stephen Doughty, Kate Groucutt, Jeremy Miles, Nick Thomas-Symonds, Karen Wilkie
Manchester Central: Lucy Powell 93 votes, Mike Amesbury 55 votes, Rose Battle 24 votes, Patrick Vernon 11
Bradford West: Imran Hussain, Ralph Berry , Afzal Khan, Simon Young, Rupa Huq, Shaukat Ali, Fadel Takrouri
Feltham and Heston: Seema Malhotra, Ranjit Dheer, Kamaljeet Jandu, Sophy Gardner
Inverclyde: Ian McKenzie, Frankie Caldwell, Martin McClunskey, Melanie Ward, David Whitton
Leicester South: Jonathan Ashworth 106 votes, Patrick Kitterick 44, Neil Clayton 2, Mian Mayat 1, Josie Clayton 0
Barnsley Central: Dan Jarvis, Richard Burgon, Linda Burgess, Emma Hoddinott (IIRC Jarvis and Burgess tied in round 2. Then Jarvis got almost all transfers from Burgess to pass Burgon).
Oldham East: Debbie Abrahams, Abdul Jabbar and Riaz Ahmed (Final round: 51 Abrahams, 51 Jabbar. Abrahams won because of more first preferences)
Glasgow North East:
Norwich North: Chris Owstroski, Victoria MacDonald, Michelle Savage, Ffinlo Costain
Glenrothes: Lindday Roy 36 votes Colin Davidson 14 Kezia Dugdale 10
Glasgow East: George Ryan, Doug Maughan and Irene Graham. Ryan was the prefered choice and withdrew at the last minute. Selection was cancelled and shortlist redrawn to include Margaret Curran (who didn’t apply to first selection).
Crewe and Nantwich:
Sedgefield: Phil Wilson, Melanie Johnson, Dr Simon Henig, Pat McCourt and Alan Strickland
Ealing Southall: Vivendra Sharma, Jo Sindhu
Dunfermline West: Catherine Stihler, Mary Lockhart and Willie Sullivan
Livingston: Jim Devine; Hanzala Malik; John Duncan, Willie Dunn, John McGinty
Hartlepool: Ian Wright, Lee Vasey, Phil Graham, Kath Rolf (who withdrew before selection meeting)
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Post by ClevelandYorks on Mar 19, 2021 19:41:16 GMT
Going down the memory lines, here are Labour shortlists for by-elections in Labour held seats over the last decade...I miss some of them HartlepooIt's not that bad |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Mar 19, 2021 20:40:37 GMT
Going down the memory lines, here are Labour shortlists for by-elections in Labour held seats over the last decade...I miss some of them Hartlepoo: Paul Williams Peterborough: Lisa Forbes, Samantha Hemraj Newport West: Lewisham East: Janet Daby 288 votes, Sakina Sheikh 135 Claudia Webbe 35 Stoke Central:Gareth Snell, Allison Gardner, Trudie McGuinness, Stephen Hitchin (withdrawn) Copeland: Barbara Cannon, Rachel Holliday and Gillian Troughton Batley and Spen: Tracy Brabin, Jane Thomas Tooting: Rosena Allin Khan, Naushabah Khan, Mike McLaughlin, Jasvir Singh, Martin Smith Ogmore: Sheffield Brightside: Jayne Dunn, Jayne Lim and Gill Furniss Oldham West: Jim McMahon 232 votes, Mohammed Azam 141 votes, Chris Williamson, Jane East Heywood and Middleton: Liz McInness, Miriam O’Reilly, Byron Taylor, Kailash Chand South Shields: Emma Lewell-Buck. Lewis Atkinson, Paul Williams, Mark Walsh (withdrew 1 hour before the selection meeting. He was the supposed favourite). Same one? |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 19, 2021 20:45:52 GMT
Going down the memory lines, here are Labour shortlists for by-elections in Labour held seats over the last decade...I miss some of them Hartlepoo: Paul Williams Peterborough: Lisa Forbes, Samantha Hemraj Newport West: Lewisham East: Janet Daby 288 votes, Sakina Sheikh 135 Claudia Webbe 35 Stoke Central:Gareth Snell, Allison Gardner, Trudie McGuinness, Stephen Hitchin (withdrawn) Copeland: Barbara Cannon, Rachel Holliday and Gillian Troughton Batley and Spen: Tracy Brabin, Jane Thomas Tooting: Rosena Allin Khan, Naushabah Khan, Mike McLaughlin, Jasvir Singh, Martin Smith Ogmore: Sheffield Brightside: Jayne Dunn, Jayne Lim and Gill Furniss Oldham West: Jim McMahon 232 votes, Mohammed Azam 141 votes, Chris Williamson, Jane East Heywood and Middleton: Liz McInness, Miriam O’Reilly, Byron Taylor, Kailash Chand South Shields: Emma Lewell-Buck. Lewis Atkinson, Paul Williams, Mark Walsh (withdrew 1 hour before the selection meeting. He was the supposed favourite). Same one? Yes |
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Post by greenhert on Mar 19, 2021 21:11:27 GMT
Going down the memory lines, here are Labour shortlists for by-elections in Labour held seats over the last decade...I miss some of them Hartlepoo: Paul Williams Peterborough: Lisa Forbes, Samantha Hemraj Newport West: Lewisham East: Janet Daby 288 votes, Sakina Sheikh 135 Claudia Webbe 35 Stoke Central:Gareth Snell, Allison Gardner, Trudie McGuinness, Stephen Hitchin (withdrawn) Copeland: Barbara Cannon, Rachel Holliday and Gillian Troughton Batley and Spen: Tracy Brabin, Jane Thomas Tooting: Rosena Allin Khan, Naushabah Khan, Mike McLaughlin, Jasvir Singh, Martin Smith Ogmore: Sheffield Brightside: Jayne Dunn, Jayne Lim and Gill Furniss Oldham West: Jim McMahon 232 votes, Mohammed Azam 141 votes, Chris Williamson, Jane East Heywood and Middleton: Liz McInness, Miriam O’Reilly, Byron Taylor, Kailash Chand South Shields: Emma Lewell-Buck. Lewis Atkinson, Paul Williams, Mark Walsh (withdrew 1 hour before the selection meeting. He was the supposed favourite). Croydon North: Simon Burgess, Faz Hakim, Steve Reed, Val Shawcross, Louisa Woodley (Final round: Reed 96 Shawcross 93 votes) Middlesbrough: Andy McDonald 118 votes, Joe Docherty 64, Emma France 8, Amina Ali 3, Ed Malcolm 0 Rotherham: Sarah Champion 13 votes, Sophy Gardner 12 (the exclusion of all local candidates led to a mass walkover at selection meeting. Hence the low numbers of votes cast) Cardiff South: Stephen Doughty, Kate Groucutt, Jeremy Miles, Nick Thomas-Symonds, Karen Wilkie Manchester Central: Lucy Powell 93 votes, Mike Amesbury 55 votes, Rose Battle 24 votes, Patrick Vernon 11 Bradford West: Imran Hussain, Ralph Berry , Afzal Khan, Simon Young, Rupa Huq, Shaukat Ali, Fadel Takrouri Feltham and Heston: Seema Malhotra, Ranjit Dheer, Kamaljeet Jandu, Sophy Gardner Inverclyde: Ian McKenzie, Frankie Caldwell, Martin McClunskey, Melanie Ward, David Whitton Leicester South: Jonathan Ashworth 106 votes, Patrick Kitterick 44, Neil Clayton 2, Mian Mayat 1, Josie Clayton 0 Barnsley Central: Dan Jarvis, Richard Burgon, Linda Burgess, Emma Hoddinott (IIRC Jarvis and Burgess tied in round 2. Then Jarvis got almost all transfers from Burgess to pass Burgon). Oldham East: Debbie Abrahams Abdul Jabbar and Riaz Ahmed (Final round: 51 Abrahams, 51 Jabbar. Abrahams won because of more first preferences) Glasgow North East: Norwich North: Chris Owstroski, Victoria MacDonald, Michelle Savage, Ffinlo Costain Glenrothes: Lindsay Roy 36 votes Colin Davidson 14 Kezia Dugdale 10 Glasgow East: George Ryan, Doug Maughan and Irene Graham. Ryan was the prefered choice and withdrew at the last minute. Selection was cancelled and shortlist redrawn to include Margaret Curran (who didn’t apply to first selection). Crewe and Nantwich: Sedgefield: Phil Wilson, Melanie Johnson, Dr Simon Henig, Pat McCourt and Alan Strickland Ealing Southall: Vivendra Sharma, Jo Sindhu Dunfermline West: Catherine Stihler, Mary Lockhart and Willie Sullivan Livingston: Jim Devine; Hanzala Malik; John Duncan, Willie Dunn, John McGinty Hartlepool: Ian Wright, Lee Vasey, Phil Graham, Kath Rolf (who withdrew before selection meeting) These shortlists include quite a few people who became MPs later via a general election. Interesting that Sophy Gardner appears twice in this list-she was the Labour candidate in Gloucester in 2015 and performed pretty poorly. |
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Post by Merseymike on Mar 19, 2021 21:13:30 GMT
Going down the memory lines, here are Labour shortlists for by-elections in Labour held seats over the last decade...I miss some of them Hartlepoo: Paul Williams Peterborough: Lisa Forbes, Samantha Hemraj Newport West: Lewisham East: Janet Daby 288 votes, Sakina Sheikh 135 Claudia Webbe 35 Stoke Central:Gareth Snell, Allison Gardner, Trudie McGuinness, Stephen Hitchin (withdrawn) Copeland: Barbara Cannon, Rachel Holliday and Gillian Troughton Batley and Spen: Tracy Brabin, Jane Thomas Tooting: Rosena Allin Khan, Naushabah Khan, Mike McLaughlin, Jasvir Singh, Martin Smith Ogmore: Sheffield Brightside: Jayne Dunn, Jayne Lim and Gill Furniss Oldham West: Jim McMahon 232 votes, Mohammed Azam 141 votes, Chris Williamson, Jane East Heywood and Middleton: Liz McInness, Miriam O’Reilly, Byron Taylor, Kailash Chand South Shields: Emma Lewell-Buck. Lewis Atkinson, Paul Williams, Mark Walsh (withdrew 1 hour before the selection meeting. He was the supposed favourite). Croydon North: Simon Burgess, Faz Hakim, Steve Reed, Val Shawcross, Louisa Woodley (Final round: Reed 96 Shawcross 93 votes) Middlesbrough: Andy McDonald 118 votes, Joe Docherty 64, Emma France 8, Amina Ali 3, Ed Malcolm 0 Rotherham: Sarah Champion 13 votes, Sophy Gardner 12 (the exclusion of all local candidates led to a mass walkover at selection meeting. Hence the low numbers of votes cast) Cardiff South: Stephen Doughty, Kate Groucutt, Jeremy Miles, Nick Thomas-Symonds, Karen Wilkie Manchester Central: Lucy Powell 93 votes, Mike Amesbury 55 votes, Rose Battle 24 votes, Patrick Vernon 11 Bradford West: Imran Hussain, Ralph Berry , Afzal Khan, Simon Young, Rupa Huq, Shaukat Ali, Fadel Takrouri Feltham and Heston: Seema Malhotra, Ranjit Dheer, Kamaljeet Jandu, Sophy Gardner Inverclyde: Ian McKenzie, Frankie Caldwell, Martin McClunskey, Melanie Ward, David Whitton Leicester South: Jonathan Ashworth 106 votes, Patrick Kitterick 44, Neil Clayton 2, Mian Mayat 1, Josie Clayton 0 Barnsley Central: Dan Jarvis, Richard Burgon, Linda Burgess, Emma Hoddinott (IIRC Jarvis and Burgess tied in round 2. Then Jarvis got almost all transfers from Burgess to pass Burgon). Oldham East: Debbie Abrahams Abdul Jabbar and Riaz Ahmed (Final round: 51 Abrahams, 51 Jabbar. Abrahams won because of more first preferences) Glasgow North East: Norwich North: Chris Owstroski, Victoria MacDonald, Michelle Savage, Ffinlo Costain Glenrothes: Lindsay Roy 36 votes Colin Davidson 14 Kezia Dugdale 10 Glasgow East: George Ryan, Doug Maughan and Irene Graham. Ryan was the prefered choice and withdrew at the last minute. Selection was cancelled and shortlist redrawn to include Margaret Curran (who didn’t apply to first selection). Crewe and Nantwich: Sedgefield: Phil Wilson, Melanie Johnson, Dr Simon Henig, Pat McCourt and Alan Strickland Ealing Southall: Vivendra Sharma, Jo Sindhu Dunfermline West: Catherine Stihler, Mary Lockhart and Willie Sullivan Livingston: Jim Devine; Hanzala Malik; John Duncan, Willie Dunn, John McGinty Hartlepool: Ian Wright, Lee Vasey, Phil Graham, Kath Rolf (who withdrew before selection meeting) These shortlists include quite a few people who became MPs later via a general election. Interesting that Sophy Gardner appears twice in this list-she was the Labour candidate in Gloucester in 2015 and performed pretty poorly. Gardner was someone who the right of the party were desperate to see selected because of her military background. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Mar 19, 2021 21:15:10 GMT
Chris Ostrowski... Wasn't there a bizarre story involving him? Catching foot-and-mouth or something equally odd.
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andrea
Non-Aligned
Posts: 7,777
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Post by andrea on Mar 19, 2021 21:21:10 GMT
Chris Ostrowski... Wasn't there a bizarre story involving him? Catching foot-and-mouth or something equally odd. Swine flu in the last few days of the campaign. |
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Post by timrollpickering on Mar 19, 2021 22:07:42 GMT
Of all the Labour parliamentarians this is surely the one Williams will most want gunning for him?
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carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,984 
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 20, 2021 9:38:26 GMT
What Labour have done (and in depth analysis backs this up) is hoover up the never Corbyn progressive liberal vote by sheer virtue of getting rid of Corbyn We've made little to no inroads into the Tory vote amd every day that passes the public think less of Starmer Come the next election Labour will probably offer pallid nonsense which won't win over many Tory voters while equally losing us support on the left to apathy and smaller parties on the left, the Tory vote will be shored up by the usual media drivel and the rest is history Net result is no real change may gain a few seats may lose a few, the idea is meant to be that you betray your principles for power not betray them to stand still!!! The current direction is a road to nowhere and even a lot of more moderate members can see it now, if soft left twitter is indicative of anything then Starmer has lost the backbone of his support base in the past month or so. If you can't even win over your own side you have no hope with the public at large But party politics has been very much in abeyance over the last year on account of the Pandemic. The Opposition has been frozen out with the public at large not at all interested in other issues - including Brexit! Until conditions settle down post- pandemic , we don't really have a clear idea as to where the land now lies. That said, polling 36% - 38% is not that bad - particularly when allowance is made for the collapse in Scotland having knocked circa 2% from Labour's GB vote share. But there never is a 'steady state' in politics where conditions are 'normal' or 'rational'. There is always a Corns Laws, Votes for Women, Universal Suffrage, War, Depression, Strike, Empire Preference, New Party, Union Movement, EU, SDP, UKIP, Brexit, Covid, to add interest, apoil things, make a difference. And it will not all be about the NHS and Covid; nor are Brexit and Corbyn forgotten completely. Nor are Blair and Mandelson forgotten. Nor are unions and Labour traditions forgotten. This is a meld and a fusion of hurts and bias and old affections and new thoughts. There is a bit more flux than there used to be. On balance I still think that it is Labour's to lose because there will not be a coalition of opposition to them as there is against the SNP in Scotland and the Conservatives in some constituencies. Labour have vulnerability over Corbyn, Brexit, a Remainer candidate and unpleasant tweets. I don't think that will be enough to defeat them but it might be awkwardly close and a damage to Starmer. He ought at this stage of the cycle to be at least ahead of the Conservatives and a long way ahead at a Hartlepools. |
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CatholicLeft
Labour
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Post by CatholicLeft on Mar 20, 2021 11:28:09 GMT
Of all the Labour parliamentarians this is surely the one Williams will most want gunning for him? I have to say, 10 year old tweets which are, at best, daft, should not be disqualifying. That somebody, who has purported to spend her career fighting for a society which believes in freedom and the recognition that people can change, to make such a vicious attack ( as I heard on the broadcast) and offering no recognition of people maturing, tells you more about internal party politics than common sense. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,967
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Post by The Bishop on Mar 20, 2021 11:30:48 GMT
I've said it before, people need to grow up across the political spectrum about OLD tweets/social media posts especially.
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,099
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Post by ilerda on Mar 20, 2021 11:39:12 GMT
The only people that actually make anything of them are the opposition. Voters have absolutely no interest in and most likely no knowledge of most of these “controversies”.
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Post by justin124 on Mar 20, 2021 11:44:14 GMT
But party politics has been very much in abeyance over the last year on account of the Pandemic. The Opposition has been frozen out with the public at large not at all interested in other issues - including Brexit! Until conditions settle down post- pandemic , we don't really have a clear idea as to where the land now lies. That said, polling 36% - 38% is not that bad - particularly when allowance is made for the collapse in Scotland having knocked circa 2% from Labour's GB vote share. But there never is a 'steady state' in politics where conditions are 'normal' or 'rational'. There is always a Corns Laws, Votes for Women, Universal Suffrage, War, Depression, Strike, Empire Preference, New Party, Union Movement, EU, SDP, UKIP, Brexit, Covid, to add interest, apoil things, make a difference. And it will not all be about the NHS and Covid; nor are Brexit and Corbyn forgotten completely. Nor are Blair and Mandelson forgotten. Nor are unions and Labour traditions forgotten. This is a meld and a fusion of hurts and bias and old affections and new thoughts. There is a bit more flux than there used to be. On balance I still think that it is Labour's to lose because there will not be a coalition of opposition to them as there is against the SNP in Scotland and the Conservatives in some constituencies. Labour have vulnerability over Corbyn, Brexit, a Remainer candidate and unpleasant tweets. I don't think that will be enough to defeat them but it might be awkwardly close and a damage to Starmer. He ought at this stage of the cycle to be at least ahead of the Conservatives and a long way ahead at a Hartlepools. It is not normal for party politics to be in abeyance - with opposition parties effectively 'frozen out' for an extended period. Closest parallel is with wartime conditions. Despite that, under Starmer Labour is performing better than under Gaitskell at the same stage of the 1959 Parliamrnt - or under Kinnock at this stage of the 1987 Parliament. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Mar 20, 2021 11:52:46 GMT
Of all the Labour parliamentarians this is surely the one Williams will most want gunning for him? I have to say, 10 year old tweets which are, at best, daft, should not be disqualifying. That somebody, who has purported to spend her career fighting for a society which believes in freedom and the recognition that people can change, to make such a vicious attack ( as I heard on the broadcast) and offering no recognition of people maturing, tells you more about internal party politics than common sense. Chakrabati is a vile hypocrite who only owes her status as a parliamentarian to her whitewashing of anti-semitism in the Corbyn led Labour party. She was once widely respected across the political spectrum but now has zero credibility outside the small faction of the Labour party that sponsored her (as you hint at). As Tim suggests, this kind of criticism from this kind of source is likely to act as a de facto endorsement for many normal people who are voters in Hartlepool. If I was one of them, this kind of bullshit would almost incline me to vote for him myself |
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carlton43
Reform Party
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 20, 2021 12:12:45 GMT
But there never is a 'steady state' in politics where conditions are 'normal' or 'rational'. There is always a Corns Laws, Votes for Women, Universal Suffrage, War, Depression, Strike, Empire Preference, New Party, Union Movement, EU, SDP, UKIP, Brexit, Covid, to add interest, apoil things, make a difference. And it will not all be about the NHS and Covid; nor are Brexit and Corbyn forgotten completely. Nor are Blair and Mandelson forgotten. Nor are unions and Labour traditions forgotten. This is a meld and a fusion of hurts and bias and old affections and new thoughts. There is a bit more flux than there used to be. On balance I still think that it is Labour's to lose because there will not be a coalition of opposition to them as there is against the SNP in Scotland and the Conservatives in some constituencies. Labour have vulnerability over Corbyn, Brexit, a Remainer candidate and unpleasant tweets. I don't think that will be enough to defeat them but it might be awkwardly close and a damage to Starmer. He ought at this stage of the cycle to be at least ahead of the Conservatives and a long way ahead at a Hartlepools. It is not normal for party politics to be in abeyance - with opposition parties effectively 'frozen out' for an extended period. Closest parallel is with wartime conditions. Despite that, under Starmer Labour is performing better than under Gaitskell at the same stage of the 1959 Parliamrnt - or under Kinnock at this stage of the 1987 Parliament. By 'doing better' are we to assume you mean 'polling' better or 'performing' better as a party in politics? I feel that you must mean the former? IMO the party was in better health with better quality MPs and a better spread of cohesive ideas and policies under both Kinnock and Gaitskell. But, then the Conservatives were also better served by ideas and policy and quality MPs then as well. It is easy to decry the present and see more quality in the past but I genuinely feel we are living through an utter desert of talent all round at present. I put that down to our diminished status as a nation; the inability to have secondary occupations and proper investments so diminishing income to level's that fall far short of what a quality performer deserves and needs; political correctness and nit-picking attention to every joke and aside ever made in a lifetime; and the stupidity of assuming the MP needs to be a 'good constituency MP' or more accurately a wet-nurse for fuck-wits and incompetent and lazy constituents. We have constructed a new scenario for the MP to exist in and few wish to touch it with a bargepole and those that do are third rankers or narcissists with a private income. I wouldn't touch the job on those conditions for twice the income. |
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Post by justin124 on Mar 20, 2021 12:15:25 GMT
It is not normal for party politics to be in abeyance - with opposition parties effectively 'frozen out' for an extended period. Closest parallel is with wartime conditions. Despite that, under Starmer Labour is performing better than under Gaitskell at the same stage of the 1959 Parliamrnt - or under Kinnock at this stage of the 1987 Parliament. By 'doing better' are we to assume you mean 'polling' better or 'performing' better as a party in politics? I feel that you must mean the former? IMO the party was in better health with better quality MPs and a better spread of cohesive ideas and policies under both Kinnock and Gaitskell. But, then the Conservatives were also better served by ideas and policy and quality MPs then as well. It is easy to decry the present and see more quality in the past but I genuinely feel we are living through an utter desert of tlent all round at present. I put that down to our diminished status as a nation, the inability to have secondary occupations and proper investments so diminishing income to level's that fall far short of what a quality performer deserves and needs; political correctness and nit-picking attention to every joke and aside ever made in a lifetime; and the stupidity of assuming the MP needs to be a 'good constituency MP' or more accurately a wet-nurse for fuck-wits and incompetent and lazy constituents. I agree with most of that! We have constructed a new scenario for the MP to exist in and few wish to touch it with a bargepole and those that do a third rank or narcissists with a private income. I agree with most of that! |
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carlton43
Reform Party
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Post by carlton43 on Mar 20, 2021 12:47:31 GMT
Oh I see, we disagree fundamentally then. I can't say I'm particularly bothered about party 'democracy' – I would much rather the leadership put in place candidates more likely to chime with the general electorate (admittedly this is a bad example) than a limited selectorate of unrepresentative members. People were complaining about the selection being particularly undemocratic. It does. after all, seem utterly implausible for a party with as many members as Labour to have so few people interested in contesting a winnable by-election that the "longlist" consisted of a single candidate. You chimed in saying that you think this is all out of proportion, and you're backing this up by suggesting that giving the local party a say is a bad thing.
There are, however, two big problems with your point of view. Firstly is that imposing a candidate the local party don't want means that they will be reluctant to campaign (even imposing a candidate they don't have a problem with can sometimes produce this effect). And since this by-election looks to be happening on the same day as two years' worth of local elections whilst many covid restrictions are in place, bussing in activists from elsewhere is going to be exceedingly difficult. Secondly is that party members who live and work in a constituency are more likely to know what factors their friends, neighbours, and colleagues take into account than a few national party staffers/NEC members who have little or no connection to the area. In a party like Labour where the national party plays an active role in selection having the local members have the final say is supposed to act as a check against unsuitable candidates being parachuted in. That isn't to say that the system always does what it is supposed to, but not giving the locals any say at all is a very bad precedent to set.
We have various streams of consciousness running against each other here on this occasion. It is in Labour's interest to get this done and settled quickly to close out the reason for the vacancy and to lance the boil. Diminish time for opposition to group and campaign and to get it done before a proper campaign can be conducted at all. It pinpoints the inherent weakness in all types of selection process. Most are cumbersome and bureaucratic and take far too long and let narrow internal factions have too much power and say. All parties seem keen to deny localism and populism altogether so as to ensure quality and that oddballs, racists, heretics, extremists and those with a closet full of skeletons are rumbled and excluded. Understandable in a contollist, risk-averse, alt.woke, conformist, politically correct environment. The record with open lists and free total electorate (not just party member) choice has not been good for parties, as people tend to choose real humans with baggage and personal views who become rebels and jump ship, do one term or rat out to another party. Nothing very democratic about constituency OMOV choice either. It only reflects a very small number of activists often in one faction (Hard Brexit or Momentum) and whilst it suits me it has little to recommend it in theoretical or democratic terms. Here the party leadership needs to take charge and impose, but if possible with full-hearted consent of the constituency officers, by persuasion and sound argument based on a sound choice. Thing is? Was this a sound choice? |
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