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Post by minionofmidas on Jun 18, 2021 17:52:23 GMT
Yeah, I have trouble envisaging the Commission buying Gloucester or Cheltenham including an area outside the town. Has anybody tried removing Tewkesbury from Tewkesbury?
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Post by John Chanin on Jun 18, 2021 18:45:49 GMT
Yeah, I have trouble envisaging the Commission buying Gloucester or Cheltenham including an area outside the town. Has anybody tried removing Tewkesbury from Tewkesbury? Well if the numbers were different it would make perfect sense to link it with Evesham…..
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YL
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Post by YL on Jun 18, 2021 19:35:22 GMT
Has anybody tried removing Tewkesbury from Tewkesbury? Forest of Dean as per BCE Churchdown & Cleeve compared with BCE's Tewkesbury, remove Tewkesbury itself, restore Churchdown/Brockworth area. I've also gone for a SW bite out of Cheltenham. Cheltenham without that SW bite Gloucester as per BCE Tewkesbury & Cotswold compared with BCE's Cotswolds, add Tewkesbury, remove Churchdown/Brockworth and Minchinhampton. Cirencester & Yate Rest of Cotswold district, Kingswood ward of Stroud, Yate x 2, Dodington, Sodding Chipbury. Stroud compared with BCE add Minchinhampton, remove Kingswood. Kingswood basically existing seat plus Boyd Valley Thornbury & Bradley Stoke the rest of South Glos except the four wards in the cross border seat Bristol North East S Glos wards are Filton, Stoke Park & Cheswick, Frenchay & Downend, Staple Hill & Mangotsfield Not really serious...
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Post by minionofmidas on Jun 19, 2021 4:35:59 GMT
Yeah, I have trouble envisaging the Commission buying Gloucester or Cheltenham including an area outside the town. Has anybody tried removing Tewkesbury from Tewkesbury? Well if the numbers were different it would make perfect sense to link it with Evesham….. the numbers are right, only the rules are in the way! Think about it. Devon is worth 12.52 seats. The forum has shown it works for 13. Somerset CC is worth 5.8 seats. The forum has shown it works for 6. Bristol and the Avon Somersets are worth 8.74 seats. Pretty sure they'd work well for 9 (featuring Bristol SE & Keynsham and a NE Somerset successor you'd probably want to name N Somerset). S Gloucestershire is worth 2.9 and can stand alone. Yet that is one seat more than the Commission is proposing. Wiltshire is worth 7.27. The forum has shown it works for 7. Gloucestershire CC is worth 6.59. It absolutely can not work for either 6 or 7 seats. And while Worcestershire is worth exactly its 6 seats, the commission is currently squeezing 0.4 of an extra seat into Staffordshire and the Black Country. Bromsgrove N & some Black Country town, Bromsgrove S & Droitwich, Evesham & Tewkesbury, and your overall seat total is correct again!
Since there is no way of convincing the Commission of that though, I meant a Tewkesbury and North Cotswolds seat. Wasn't there once a Tewkesbury & Cirencester? Tewkesbury is the abnormous bit in the current Tewkesbury seat, which really is the third Glostenham seat already. And the Commission's proposed "Cotswolds" is awful. As also shown by the above maths bit, pairing Gloucestershire CC and S Gloucestershire really isn't helpful on the numbers. Squeezing 18 seats into Somerset CC and Devon (or even better 12 into Devon full stop) is the ticket to reduce the number of humongous cross-authority seats. Of course if you subsume everything to the "no cross authority seats" logic Banes can also stand alone, only pairing Bristol and N Somerset, but...
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jun 19, 2021 8:29:14 GMT
Forest of Dean, Ciren & N Wilts, Stroud left as the BCE's initial proposals as those seats are fine. Gloucester suburbs are moved from Cotswolds as they just don't belong there. Hardwicke goes into Gloucester - I'd be open to splitting the town itself from the rural parts but the BCE dislike orphan wards and I suspect they'd have a fit over an orphan polling district. People in Hardwicke very much look to Gloucester - it merges reasonably well into Quedgely, has better road and bus links to Gloucester than Stroud or the Cotswolds, people there tend to use Gloucester for shopping, leisure, health services, education, you name it. Hucclecote is reunited and northern Gloucester suburbs kept in the same seat. The Tewkesbury link is not ideal but it is a) longstanding b) minimal change c) inline with local government boundaries and d) at least united by the commuter element in both places. To reflect changes this seat's name is changed to Gloucester North &Tewkesbury. Cheltenham reincorporates Springbank. It also takes Shurdington, partly for numbers reasons but it is also a definite Cheltenham suburb. Tewkesbury needs to lose electors and Cotswolds needs to gain them; hence the moving of Cleeve Hill. To avoid either a) splitting Bishop's Cleeve or b) having a funny tendril consisting of Swindon Village, the two Cheltenham wards are removed. Swindon Village returns to Cheltenham, Prestbury goes to Cotswolds. This leaves Cheltenham over quota and Cotswolds under quota so Battledown, Charlton Park and Charlton Kings are removed as they are the least Cheltenham-like and most Cotswoldsy parts of Cheltenham. Prestbury is slightly incongruous in the Cotswold seat, but not much worse than Tekesbury and it is sadly necessary for numerical reasons. The Cotswolds seat is renamed North Cotswolds or North East Gloucestershire to better reflect the area it covers This avoids a Dursley/Yate or Dursley/Thornbury pairing. It also produces a much more coherent Cotswolds seat made up of Cotswolds and Cotswolds-adjacent areas instead of some Cotswolds and some detached Gloucester suburbs (The Cheltenham areas in the seat actually have decent transport links to Bourton, Moreton etc.) The price paid is that Cheltenham is less than ideal but it's still much better and much more coherent than either a) Dursley + Random S Glos bit or b) the BCE's Cotswolds seat Idiotic and wrong
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jun 19, 2021 9:02:07 GMT
I don't entirely disapprove of islington's putting Highworth in with the Cotswold seat but do disapprove of the Commission's plan to merge a whole swathe of North Wiltshire with that part of Gloucestershire. However now we have seen that the Commission have shown a refreshing willingness to split wards I think a split ward solution is the answer to Wiltshire and only two are needed, one in each of the UAs In Swindon Covingham & Dorcan would need to be carefully divided (unfortunately I don't have figures) with basically Covingham staying in North and Dorcan in South, with the boundary being fixed wherever necessary to make those numbers work. Wiltshire (plus Ridgeway) is even simpler. Split Amesbury East & Bulford between its two named components and along the current boundary between Salisbury and Devizes. I know I have suggested this before but it makes absolute sense to split a ward like this to avoid disruption elsewhere. This leads to minimum change throughout the county with just Corsham and Box & Colerne swapping places between Chippenham and North Wiltshire, Ridgeway going from Swindon South to Devizes and otherwise more or less just realigning with new ward boundaries. This also enables a sensible solution in Gloucestershire/South Gloucestershire/Bristol for 14 seats and by extension Somerset (including the two UAs) for 10. Yes this is going to involve a seat crossing between Gloucestershire and South Gloucestershire (quite logically) and this is going to involve separating Dursley and Cam from Stroud but I suspect like most others here I don't regard the nakedly partisan interests of one forum member in one constituency to be worth making a shambles of the other 30 in this area
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jun 19, 2021 9:20:16 GMT
And again nothing new here, but this would be my preffered arrangement for the Gloucestershire/Bristol grouping. Absolutely no need to cross the boundary between this area and Somerset as the Commission are proposing (nor, as I have just shown, this area and Wiltshire)
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European Lefty
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Post by European Lefty on Jun 19, 2021 9:42:54 GMT
And again nothing new here, but this would be my preffered arrangement for the Gloucestershire/Bristol grouping. Absolutely no need to cross the boundary between this area and Somerset as the Commission are proposing (nor, as I have just shown, this area and Wiltshire) A much worse effort than the BCE because it pairs Dursley with Thornbury. I don't know why people who have never been within 100 miles of either town keep trying to insist that it's a viable constituency
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 19, 2021 10:17:06 GMT
Yeah, its not unlike putting Churchdown/Brockworth et al into a "Cotswolds" seat. They don't belong there, simple as.
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European Lefty
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Post by European Lefty on Jun 19, 2021 10:29:02 GMT
I don't entirely disapprove of islington 's putting Highworth in with the Cotswold seat but do disapprove of the Commission's plan to merge a whole swathe of North Wiltshire with that part of Gloucestershire. However now we have seen that the Commission have shown a refreshing willingness to split wards I think a split ward solution is the answer to Wiltshire and only two are needed, one in each of the UAs In Swindon Covingham & Dorcan would need to be carefully divided (unfortunately I don't have figures) with basically Covingham staying in North and Dorcan in South, with the boundary being fixed wherever necessary to make those numbers work. Wiltshire (plus Ridgeway) is even simpler. Split Amesbury East & Bulford between its two named components and along the current boundary between Salisbury and Devizes. I know I have suggested this before but it makes absolute sense to split a ward like this to avoid disruption elsewhere. This leads to minimum change throughout the county with just Corsham and Box & Colerne swapping places between Chippenham and North Wiltshire, Ridgeway going from Swindon South to Devizes and otherwise more or less just realigning with new ward boundaries. This also enables a sensible solution in Gloucestershire/South Gloucestershire/Bristol for 14 seats and by extension Somerset (including the two UAs) for 10. Yes this is going to involve a seat crossing between Gloucestershire and South Gloucestershire (quite logically) and this is going to involve separating Dursley and Cam from Stroud but I suspect like most others here I don't regard the nakedly partisan interests of one forum member in one constituency to be worth making a shambles of the other 30 in this area It's not partisan at all its because I actually live here and object to the community being ignored in this way
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European Lefty
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Post by European Lefty on Jun 19, 2021 10:30:23 GMT
Yeah, its not unlike putting Churchdown/Brockworth et al into a "Cotswolds" seat. They don't belong there, simple as. Yes, that was awful as well. Fortunately it's possible to create a reasonably good plan that avoids both
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jun 19, 2021 10:33:12 GMT
Yeah, its not unlike putting Churchdown/Brockworth et al into a "Cotswolds" seat. They don't belong there, simple as. I don't think anyone has suggested that have they? There seem to be perfectly good road links between Thornbury and Dursley but an alternative is to put Thornbury, Pilning & Severn Beach and Severn Vale in with Bradley Stoke in exchange for the three Yate wards. Looks a bit better on the map but it struck me that the links between Thornbury and Dursley would be better than those between Yate and Dursley. Of course whether somebody can get on a bus between the two places is neither here nor there as I doubt many MPs in rural areas operate that way
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 19, 2021 10:40:22 GMT
Yeah, its not unlike putting Churchdown/Brockworth et al into a "Cotswolds" seat. They don't belong there, simple as. I don't think anyone has suggested that have they? Yes I think it has been suggested on this very thread. Not just that, but ISTR your good self doing it back in the day
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European Lefty
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Post by European Lefty on Jun 19, 2021 10:40:51 GMT
Yeah, its not unlike putting Churchdown/Brockworth et al into a "Cotswolds" seat. They don't belong there, simple as. I don't think anyone has suggested that have they? There seem to be perfectly good road links between Thornbury and Dursley but an alternative is to put Thornbury, Pilning & Severn Beach and Severn Vale in with Bradley Stoke in exchange for the three Yate wards. Looks a bit better on the map but it struck me that the links between Thornbury and Dursley would be better than those between Yate and Dursley. Of course whether somebody can get on a bus between the two places is neither here nor there as I doubt many MPs in rural areas operate that way Believe me there aren't good road links at all. At best there are a couple of long, twisting routes that are closed or impassable half the time anyway. In addition to which there's just no local connection. Yate us a place you go through on the train to Bristol, Thornbury is a rugby club you play a couple of times a year. Stroud is where you go for work, shopping, leisure, education, lots of services including banks, some health services, lots of youth services (lots of them based in Stroud and operating in Dursley). It would be like trying to link Moreton-in-Marsh with Churchdown and Brockworth
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jun 19, 2021 10:45:30 GMT
I don't think anyone has suggested that have they? Yes I think it has been suggested on this very thread. Not just that, but ISTR your good self doing it back in the day Seems unlikely but one often kicks various ideas about, some not always entirely seriously. Fwiw this appears to have been my suggestion from a previous review and it looks kind of familiar.. There's a simpler solution which involved far less disruption to existing seats and avoids splitting Coombe Hill. (Quedgeley used to be in Stroud district up until the 1980s btw) The Cjeltenham ward of Springbank provides a connection between the Tewkesbury etc area and the Brockworth/Churchdown area.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 19, 2021 10:47:35 GMT
You definitely did suggest it, because I totally recall pulling you up on it. After which you redid your proposal, tbf (it was some time ago tbh, quite possibly at the "old place")
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jun 19, 2021 10:51:20 GMT
You definitely did suggest it, because I totally recall pulling you up on it. After which you redid your proposal, tbf (it was some time ago tbh, quite possibly at the "old place") If I did it it was on the old place as I have done a search here. As I say without seeing what I suggested I can't comment on my thinking at the time but remember that with 600 seats some pretty awful compromises had to be made, including IIRC the Boundary Commission themselves effectively putting Gloucester city centre in the Forest of Dean seat which as 'idiotic and wrong' suggestions go has to really take the cake here
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European Lefty
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Post by European Lefty on Jun 19, 2021 10:59:46 GMT
You definitely did suggest it, because I totally recall pulling you up on it. After which you redid your proposal, tbf (it was some time ago tbh, quite possibly at the "old place") If I did it it was on the old place as I have done a search here. As I say without seeing what I suggested I can't comment on my thinking at the time but remember that with 600 seats some pretty awful compromises had to be made, including IIRC the Boundary Commission themselves effectively putting Gloucester city centre in the Forest of Dean seat which as 'idiotic and wrong' suggestions go has to really take the cake here Ah, so you are capable of grasping the concept of community links and constituencies that break them. So why are you so intent on ignoring what I say about the area I actually live in?
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iain
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Post by iain on Jun 19, 2021 13:30:59 GMT
I don’t think anyone is claiming that the Dursley & Thornbury / Yate seat is amazing - but it is passable and stops you making a mess of everywhere else. Not every seat can be incredible, but it is easily the best arrangement to stop you destroying Gloucestershire / Wiltshire / Somerset.
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Post by minionofmidas on Jun 19, 2021 13:39:44 GMT
You definitely did suggest it, because I totally recall pulling you up on it. After which you redid your proposal, tbf (it was some time ago tbh, quite possibly at the "old place") If I did it it was on the old place as I have done a search here. As I say without seeing what I suggested I can't comment on my thinking at the time but remember that with 600 seats some pretty awful compromises had to be made, including IIRC the Boundary Commission themselves effectively putting Gloucester city centre in the Forest of Dean seat which as 'idiotic and wrong' suggestions go has to really take the cake here literally without alternative if you disallowed yourself from splitting wards (and crossing regional borders). It was an excellent test to see whether they were serious about that as a policy or just too lazy to do their job right.
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