swanarcadian
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Post by swanarcadian on Dec 22, 2020 21:43:28 GMT
Something that is very noticeable when researching pre-reform local election results in England is that most of the Labour Party's opponents maintained a practice long after the Second World War of appealing to the electors either as Independents or without description, conducting their campaigns without the official backing of the political organisations with which they were usually identified. Presumably a large proportion of these will have been Conservatives, certainly from the 1930s onwards.
Does anyone have any idea what proportion of these "Independents" were actually Conservatives, and why they preferred to be identified as Independents? Was it entirely due to a desire to keep party politics out of local government?
It did become more commonplace to adopt party labels as time went on, and by and large this meant a dwindling of numbers of Independent councillors in many councils. Ilkley UDC was perhaps a good example. No-one stood as a Conservative there until 1948, yet the party gained control there just three years later.
Labour supporting candidates, on the other hand, appeared to be open about their party allegiance right from the beginning, although they were very often referred to as "Socialists" or "Soc" in press election reports, presumably because that was considered a negative connotation by the likes of the Yorkshire Post.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Dec 22, 2020 22:19:34 GMT
This used to be a big area of humbug. Conservatives would loudly declaim that party politics should be kept out of local government, and that someone who was a Conservative in national politics could stand as an Independent for the council and it really meant they were independent. But they would not be shy of stating their national politics in their leaflets and saying they would apply similar principles in local government, and contests between such candidates were avoided.
In many places, local political parties that bore a striking overlap with national ones were set up. Some used other groups (eg Residents Association, Chamber of Trade) to provide some organisation. Only a detailed study will identify when and where Independent really meant Conservative.
Incidentally the Yorkshire Post's parent company was "Yorkshire Conservative Newspapers" from 1865 to 1959.
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Dec 22, 2020 23:05:33 GMT
Labour supporting candidates, on the other hand, appeared to be open about their party allegiance right from the beginning, although they were very often referred to as "Socialists" or "Soc" in press election reports, presumably because that was considered a negative connotation by the likes of the Yorkshire Post. It was normal back then to refer to Labour as Socialists ( here for instance is Margaret Thatcher's election address from 1959, in which she states "Your vote for me on October 8th means that you want a Conservative Government led by Mr. Harold Macmillan. A vote for any other person is a vote for a Socialist Government. Do not shirk this issue. ") – very much like the terms Conservative and Tory are still interchangeable, but when a Socialist says "Tory" they will obviously be doing so with a sneer. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Dec 22, 2020 23:17:45 GMT
No, it was a deliberate attempt to (a) deny the Labour Party the title 'Labour' (which associated with good, honest work) and (b) associate it with ideology, which Conservatives in those days thought only applied on the left. It was only normal among partisan Conservatives; Labour Party candidates referred to themselves as Labour.
Perhaps I should tell you a little secret - I have had advice from a higher authority within the Labour Party that we should avoid referring to Conservatives as "Tories". Not because it's pejorative, but because a lot of people now don't understand that "Tory" means "Conservative".
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Post by No Offence Alan on Dec 23, 2020 0:10:09 GMT
This used to be a big area of humbug. Conservatives would loudly declaim that party politics should be kept out of local government, and that someone who was a Conservative in national politics could stand as an Independent for the council and it really meant they were independent. But they would not be shy of stating their national politics in their leaflets and saying they would apply similar principles in local government, and contests between such candidates were avoided. In many places, local political parties that bore a striking overlap with national ones were set up. Some used other groups (eg Residents Association, Chamber of Trade) to provide some organisation. Only a detailed study will identify when and where Independent really meant Conservative. Incidentally the Yorkshire Post's parent company was "Yorkshire Conservative Newspapers" from 1865 to 1959. It is much harder to sail under an "Independent" flag of convenience these days because of the mandatory declaration of interests for councillors. |
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Post by hullenedge on Dec 23, 2020 8:53:11 GMT
PHD territory...'The allegiances of Independent councillors in the West Riding 1894-1974'. There were only three independents remaining on our local UDC by 1974, one was definitely a Conservative, one had been a member of the Young Liberals but veered towards us and the final one was a Labour member (her uncle had been MP for Halifax). Their allegiance in the council chamber was very much independence of mind. Going back most of our independents were Tories, Liberals or 'both' i.e. they were members of both the Con and Lib clubs and their social circles mixed between the two. They were not Labour. There were independents of a leftish hue in the southern parts of the West Riding...fall outs (ideology or personality) amongst Labourites etc.
There was a poll in the 1950s that indicated that some people viewed Socialists as different to Labour. The 'attack' was considered counterproductive and the term was used less often.
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nodealbrexiteer
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Dec 23, 2020 9:29:35 GMT
PHD territory...'The allegiances of Independent councillors in the West Riding 1894-1974'. There were only three independents remaining on our local UDC by 1974, one was definitely a Conservative, one had been a member of the Young Liberals but veered towards us and the final one was a Labour member (her uncle had been MP for Halifax). Their allegiance in the council chamber was very much independence of mind. Going back most of our independents were Tories, Liberals or 'both' i.e. they were members of both the Con and Lib clubs and their social circles mixed between the two. They were not Labour. There were independents of a leftish hue in the southern parts of the West Riding...fall outs (ideology or personality) amongst Labourites etc. There was a poll in the 1950s that indicated that some people viewed Socialists as different to Labour. The 'attack' was considered counterproductive and the term was used less often. Julian Wilson when talking about betting odds at the start of the Oct 74 programme refers to Labour as the socialists(or was it Feb?!) |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Dec 23, 2020 10:00:47 GMT
The Stretford & Urmston Conservative canvass sheets always had voters marked as S for Labour and L for Lib Dem.
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 23, 2020 10:59:59 GMT
In Marlow, Bucks, the Tories always stood for the Town Council as a bloc but never said they were Tories.
There was a redoubtable Independent councillor, Ruth Jewell, who was actually a Labour supporter and had been at University with Shirley Williams. I doubt many realised that she voted Labour nationally. She was a lot like one of Victoria Wood's posh ladies....
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nodealbrexiteer
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Dec 23, 2020 11:28:56 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30899534note this quote from the article "You may hear the word 'Tory' and think of someone with a Scouse accent saying it, perhaps even with the word 'scum' attached," jokes another Conservative politician, Bernard Jenkin, adding, "It depends on the emotion attached to the words. It's really not that important."
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swanarcadian
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Post by swanarcadian on Dec 23, 2020 11:47:15 GMT
A good point there from hullenedge about local Tory and Liberal clubs collaborating to some extent - and National Liberal & Conservatives. Come to think of it, it's not very often one comes across candidates standing under the Liberal banner in the postwar period, although admittedly this was not their golden age. There were notable exceptions, such as Saddleworth UDC and Baildon UDC. I have indeed come across some Labour candidates from the mining areas of the southern West Riding who were described as "Soc." in one election, then "Ind Soc" three years later. Something else I've noticed from the late 1940s and 1950s is a number of candidates standing under the British Legion banner, or as an Ex-Serviceman. Some of them were elected. |
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Post by owainsutton on Dec 23, 2020 11:52:41 GMT
The Stretford & Urmston Conservative canvass sheets always had voters marked as S for Labour and L for Lib Dem. That must have resulted in a few errors in the data!! |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Dec 23, 2020 12:51:09 GMT
The Stretford & Urmston Conservative canvass sheets always had voters marked as S for Labour and L for Lib Dem. That must have resulted in a few errors in the data!! They avoided this issue by barely being arsed to canvass after about 1998! |
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Post by owainsutton on Dec 23, 2020 12:59:12 GMT
That must have resulted in a few errors in the data!! They avoided this issue by barely being arsed to canvass after about 1998! Hah! I've often wondered how many votes we lose in error, due to a "Green" being on the ballot. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2020 13:41:17 GMT
The Stretford & Urmston Conservative canvass sheets always had voters marked as S for Labour and L for Lib Dem. Ironically ours have L for Labour and S for LibDem, at least locally. I presume the S comes from SDP (although I often joke that it stands for "snake") |
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Post by No Offence Alan on Dec 23, 2020 13:54:47 GMT
The Stretford & Urmston Conservative canvass sheets always had voters marked as S for Labour and L for Lib Dem. I have only once seen a Conservative canvass sheet, back in the 1980s. It had just two columns - "For" and "Against". |
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pl
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Post by pl on Dec 23, 2020 15:02:36 GMT
The Stretford & Urmston Conservative canvass sheets always had voters marked as S for Labour and L for Lib Dem. I have only once seen a Conservative canvass sheet, back in the 1980s. It had just two columns - "For" and "Against". Very lazy canvassing. Although if you are facing the LDs, finding people who are willing to say they are LDs is very rare. They just go down as Against given comments and body language. Labour and Conservative voters are always more ready to give you a voting intention. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 23, 2020 15:46:45 GMT
I have only once seen a Conservative canvass sheet, back in the 1980s. It had just two columns - "For" and "Against". Very lazy canvassing. Although if you are facing the LDs, finding people who are willing to say they are LDs is very rare. They just go down as Against given comments and body language. Labour and Conservative voters are always more ready to give you a voting intention. The only thing canvassing is for is to discover where your votes are to get them out on the day. Nothing more. |
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iain
Lib Dem
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Post by iain on Dec 23, 2020 16:16:01 GMT
Very lazy canvassing. Although if you are facing the LDs, finding people who are willing to say they are LDs is very rare. They just go down as Against given comments and body language. Labour and Conservative voters are always more ready to give you a voting intention. The only thing canvassing is for is to discover where your votes are to get them out on the day. Nothing more. It can also be to give you an idea of where you are doing well / badly - e.g. should somewhere be detargeted? |
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pl
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Post by pl on Dec 23, 2020 16:24:37 GMT
Very lazy canvassing. Although if you are facing the LDs, finding people who are willing to say they are LDs is very rare. They just go down as Against given comments and body language. Labour and Conservative voters are always more ready to give you a voting intention. The only thing canvassing is for is to discover where your votes are to get them out on the day. Nothing more. Sure - you need to know where your votes are.... but... Have you never heard of squeezing the third party vote Mike? And when the main opposition vote looks soft you apply very different tactics to when it's resilient... |
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