The Bishop
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Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 30, 2024 10:11:42 GMT
Its not like Maduro is even recognisably left wing these days, but the "anti-imperialist" brigade still continue to back him uncritically. Proper socialism has still never been tried Not what I was saying at all, but you can have your talking point  It was much more a go at certain people (hello, one certain superannuated rock star with distinctly dodgy opinions on Jews) who continue to support Maduro essentially for reasons of "campism" and not much else. As we can also see with many of them re Russia/Ukraine, actual social justice isn't really one of their primary concerns. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Jul 30, 2024 10:19:07 GMT
Proper socialism has still never been tried Not what I was saying at all, but you can have your talking point It was much more a go at certain people (hello, one certain superannuated rock star with distinctly dodgy opinions on Jews) who continue to support Maduro essentially for reasons of "campism" and not much else. As we can also see with many of them re Russia/Ukraine, actual social justice isn't actually one of their primary concerns. It's a very specific form of socialism that appeals to a very specific form of socialist, most of whom don't have to live under it. Of the type that the average socialist probably loathes more than anyone. |
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right
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Post by right on Jul 30, 2024 10:20:36 GMT
Proper socialism has still never been tried Not what I was saying at all, but you can have your talking point It was much more a go at certain people (hello, one certain superannuated rock star with distinctly dodgy opinions on Jews) who continue to support Maduro essentially for reasons of "campism" and not much else. As we can also see with many of them re Russia/Ukraine, actual social justice isn't actually one of their primary concerns. Apologies. I'll change it to "recognisably left wing has never been tried". Better? |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 30, 2024 10:48:30 GMT
Still completely missing the point. And for that matter I wouldn't dispute that Chavez was left wing/socialist despite his being a clearly bad person in *some* respects.
(same with many others)
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Jul 30, 2024 19:57:36 GMT
Proper socialism has still never been tried It fails every time and that’s always the line. Eventually social democrats are going to have to denounce both communism and socialism because both are inherently authoritarian. You can’t redistribute and take things from people, whilst social engineering “progressivism”, without a hefty stick. Then, ofc, once you’ve got that power, you aren’t going to give it up or be beneficent with it. Let us look at history: Just like after 1789 all conservatives had to adapt themselves to liberalism (acceptance/tolerance of parliament, parties no longer reduced to small circles, agitation via newsPapers&clubs,...) since the late XIXth (after MacMahon's failed coup 1877, Bismarck's "social turn" & Austria's "Iron ring" 1878, Britain's elec.reform 1884 aso.) quasi all parties&movements have been more or the less dedicated - at least publicly&verbally - to "socialism" (=public capitalism): "The upper and lower bourgeoisie are social classes, that are divided by larger or lower vitality. Upper middle class is the group of individuals capable to conquer social power individually through sole effort. In contrast, the petty bourgeoisie includes those, who, unable to make a similar effort, attempt to collectively conquer social power. Liberalism is the ideology of the first, socialism the one of the second group." (GOMEZ DAVILA) This ranges from the SovietBloc - which admitted now and again to be just a socialistic preHeaven and not a communistic heaven (with no duty to work, no police aso.) - to the USA, which was&is indeed "a deeply socialistic country" (H.v.KEYSERLING) due to its democratic atomism (yes, all atoms fight against each other - but all are equal). "Social justice" is surely theft (although the grand/middle bourgeoisie had itself stolen the privileges from the aristocracy and treated the proletariat so badly, that it had itself provoked its doom) and reDistribution from the grand/middle to the petty bourgeoisie requires also indeed "a hefty stick" - but to be fair to "socialism" this means not necessarily a tyrant and fraudulent elections: It can also be conducted simply&smoothly via progressive taxation as exemplified by the West. |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Jul 30, 2024 20:16:12 GMT
Its not like Maduro is even recognisably left wing these days, but the "anti-imperialist" brigade still continue to back him uncritically. I thought the Army just let him think he was running the country with the pet canary he talks to Chávez through |
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right
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Post by right on Aug 2, 2024 7:29:20 GMT
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Post by jimboo2017 on Aug 2, 2024 10:10:15 GMT
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right
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Post by right on Aug 2, 2024 10:30:44 GMT
Because real socialism wasn't tried hard enough
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Post by edgbaston on Aug 2, 2024 10:35:26 GMT
Because real socialism wasn't tried hard enough Is socialism building prisons? Is that why the Tories struggled to build any and we had to let a load of people off? |
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right
Conservative
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Post by right on Aug 2, 2024 10:46:28 GMT
Because real socialism wasn't tried hard enough Is that why the Tories struggled to build any and we had to let a load of people off? Socialism is a prison. You're almost there. |
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cathyc
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Post by cathyc on Aug 2, 2024 10:49:45 GMT
Because real socialism wasn't tried hard enough Is that why the Tories struggled to build any and we had to let a load of people off? Yes. Not just prisons but "re-education" institutions. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Aug 2, 2024 11:52:55 GMT
Maduro very obviously and majorly lost the election, and the outside world should act accordingly.
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right
Conservative
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Post by right on Aug 2, 2024 12:59:46 GMT
Maduro very obviously and majorly lost the election, and the outside world should act accordingly. Let the US look after their own backyard |
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Post by edgbaston on Aug 3, 2024 14:08:30 GMT
Maduro very obviously and majorly lost the election, and the outside world should act accordingly. Are we 100% confident that the replacement will be less authoritarian? Are we 100% confident we (well, the US) can stomach the deaths and refugees of a potential civil war? |
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nyx
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Post by nyx on Aug 3, 2024 15:33:58 GMT
Maduro very obviously and majorly lost the election, and the outside world should act accordingly. Are we 100% confident that the replacement will be less authoritarian? Are we 100% confident we (well, the US) can stomach the deaths and refugees of a potential civil war? Think the answer to both is yes. Maduro administration is so overwhelmingly unpopular that a protracted civil war is unlikely. |
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Post by mattbewilson on Aug 3, 2024 19:47:26 GMT
Maduro very obviously and majorly lost the election, and the outside world should act accordingly. I'm not sure what you mean? |
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Post by aargauer on Aug 3, 2024 20:42:29 GMT
I feel sorry for Venezuelans because the only way they’re going to get rid of this socialist regime is if their drug trafficking military overthrows the state, which will probably mean another tyranny, an outside intervention, though with Lula that’s unlikely, or a violent revolution. She's unhappy that her vote to repress others has ended up with her being repressed. Well that's learning the hard way. |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Aug 3, 2024 21:16:26 GMT
Proper socialism has still never been tried Not what I was saying at all, but you can have your talking point It was much more a go at certain people (hello, one certain superannuated rock star with distinctly dodgy opinions on Jews) who continue to support Maduro essentially for reasons of "campism" and not much else. As we can also see with many of them re Russia/Ukraine, actual social justice isn't really one of their primary concerns. Corbyn is a rock star  ? |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Aug 3, 2024 21:18:32 GMT
Are we 100% confident that the replacement will be less authoritarian? Are we 100% confident we (well, the US) can stomach the deaths and refugees of a potential civil war? Think the answer to both is yes. Maduro administration is so overwhelmingly unpopular that a protracted civil war is unlikely. There is no Maduro administration. Is is a Junta |
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