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Post by edgbaston on Nov 30, 2020 17:58:10 GMT
Better for whom?
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Nov 30, 2020 18:09:07 GMT
No, it would still have been a complete mess.
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Post by Strontium Dog on Nov 30, 2020 18:26:08 GMT
What a tremendous thread.
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Post by yellowperil on Nov 30, 2020 19:51:18 GMT
Who do we think might have been the " lucky" person who would have picked up the succession? I think of the likely candidates, like Gove and Raab, and the more I think about it , the more I'm sure Defenestrated Fipplebox is spot on. |
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Nov 30, 2020 20:33:38 GMT
What a ridiculous title and poll. As morbid as it is, I'd be happy to debate the what if part of this thread but to ask "Would it have been better if Boris Johnson had died?" Is both crass and ridiculous and will just bring out the cranks that are members of this place. If you drew a Venn diagram of the anti mask brigade today and those who though Boris was the best thing since sliced bread for the period from Dec 12th 2019 up to and including 1st Feb 2020 there would be a big overlap. To those people and those like JRM who thinks the Commons should return to 'set an example' the death of someone they admire or were close to at the relatively young age of 55 would I'm sure have made them sit up and think and take the whole pandemic more seriously. Fewer people in the UK would have got seriously ill and would have died, however the mourning that right wing twitter would have gone into would have been unbearable. It wouldn't however have sped up the development and roll out of the vaccine. The best thing that could have happened would have been the govt including Boris listening to science and locking down and preparing earlier. Remember when Boris bosted about going to hospital and shaking hands with people who had Covid? What a prat. Who do we think might have been the " lucky" person who would have picked up the succession? I think of the likely candidates, like Gove and Rabb, and the more I think about it , the more I'm sure Defenestrated Fipplebox is spot on. Rabb without a doubt. As First Secetary of State he would have become acting PM in all but name the second Boris was gone and there's no way in the circumstances of the sudden death of a PM in the middle of a pandemic which was causing economic and social chaos that a contest would have taken place. There may have been the promise that Rabb became acting leader of the Tory party for say 6-12 months (that's a party matter not a state matter), but the Queen would have invited him to form a government and that would be a government, not an acting or caretaker government. |
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Post by pragmaticidealist on Dec 1, 2020 3:18:50 GMT
We have an interesting situation in which the people who hate the Prime Minister with a passion on a personal level are (with a minority of exceptions) the greatest supporters of his flagship policy; that is, the lockdown.
Imagine if the legions of people who despised Mrs Thatcher as a person had openly supported the Poll Tax and Right-To-Buy.
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Post by yellowperil on Dec 1, 2020 7:31:34 GMT
We have an interesting situation in which the people who hate the Prime Minister with a passion on a personal level are (with a minority of exceptions) the greatest supporters of his flagship policy; that is, the lockdown. Imagine if the legions of people who despised Mrs Thatcher as a person had openly supported the Poll Tax and Right-To-Buy. I think its a bit more complicated than that. One can despise Boris as a buffoon and a charlatan, broadly support the principle of a need for lockdown, but despise the way it is being implemented, not just by Boris but by the other buffoons around him. Doing it that badly undermines the correct principle. |
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middyman
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Post by middyman on Dec 1, 2020 9:15:35 GMT
Wilfred would never have known his Dad.
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ricmk
Lib Dem
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Post by ricmk on Dec 1, 2020 9:51:47 GMT
He'd have been somewhere between martyr and saint.
The vaccines wouldn't have Union Jacks on, they'd have the haloed face of Saint Boris of Eton.
I suspect his legacy and reputation would be a hell of a lot better than they will be in the real world.
Actually thinking further - I wish his own experiences had changed the government approach far more than they have. I wish he'd not done all the passive aggressive stuff against the scientists in September. I wish he'd not dismissed opposition lockdown calls before having to do so longer and harder. I wish he'd worked better with local areas on track and trace. I wish he'd got serious about local decision-making around restrictions. I wish he'd cottoned on to the 3m excluded from support, the nonsense around substantial meals and 10pm closing times and the need for masks months sooner than he did.
I suspect the final analysis will confirm our outcomes in both health and economic terms have been among the worst in the world, from where I'm standing even with his own experiences, he's done a really poor job in very difficult circumstances.
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Post by thirdchill on Dec 1, 2020 10:17:23 GMT
Imagine if the legions of people who despised Mrs Thatcher as a person had openly supported the Poll Tax and Right-To-Buy. Strangely enough, I have seen quite a number of people online, who are normally strong opponents of Thatcherism, actually wish that the Mrs Thatcher they knew was in office now. Perhaps they think that (despite their own views of her) Mrs Thatcher or someone of her style would be better suited to dealing with a crisis such as this. |
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Post by yellowperil on Dec 1, 2020 10:31:33 GMT
Imagine if the legions of people who despised Mrs Thatcher as a person had openly supported the Poll Tax and Right-To-Buy. Strangely enough, I have seen quite a number of people online, who are normally strong opponents of Thatcherism, actually wish that the Mrs Thatcher they knew was in office now. Perhaps they think that (despite their own views of her) Mrs Thatcher or someone of her style would be better suited to dealing with a crisis such as this. As the reality of Ms T fades into the mists of time, it is replaced by a myth of Mrs T which becomes all too persuasive to a lot of people, even opponents. Bit like the Churchill myth, really. |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 1, 2020 11:14:21 GMT
We have an interesting situation in which the people who hate the Prime Minister with a passion on a personal level are (with a minority of exceptions) the greatest supporters of his flagship policy; that is, the lockdown. Imagine if the legions of people who despised Mrs Thatcher as a person had openly supported the Poll Tax and Right-To-Buy. Yes, it is an interesting situation. I accept that well made point. I was a tentative supporter of Johnson. I did vote for him in the leadership election. I did vote for them in 2019. I was/am a supporter of the Johnson/Cummings axis of political reform. I do want a hard Bexit and would prefer a No Deal, no divorce settlement, hardline approach. But everything else to do with Green, Global Warming, Covid, Lockdowns, Mad Economics, Social and Business destruction is complete anathema to me. I have moved from being a tentative short term supporter of him as a facilitator to change and a better party structure with the wholesale dumping of Heathite Majorite Clarkeite Cameronite wet soft policies in favour of an actual right of centre administration has been blown out of the water by stupidity, sentimentality and gross incompetence. And it was all so easy to foresee. We can't say we were not warned by many on this Forum. You were all quite correct. He is unable to focus, is easily led, does faff about and has no core plan, no plan B, no exit stategy, and no economic policy. He exists on bluster, hope, winging it, and a blind faith in experts sorting out a vaccine and an economic plan to put matters right. But who else was there/is there? And who in Labour? Mr GreyDrab and his calculated 'take no position on anything' except Corbyn-baiting? It is all so bloody hopeless and useless. |
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nodealbrexiteer
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Dec 1, 2020 14:39:36 GMT
We have an interesting situation in which the people who hate the Prime Minister with a passion on a personal level are (with a minority of exceptions) the greatest supporters of his flagship policy; that is, the lockdown. Imagine if the legions of people who despised Mrs Thatcher as a person had openly supported the Poll Tax and Right-To-Buy. Yes, it is an interesting situation. I accept that well made point. I was a tentative supporter of Johnson. I did vote for him in the leadership election. I did vote for them in 2019. I was/am a supporter of the Johnson/Cummings axis of political reform. I do want a hard Bexit and would prefer a No Deal, no divorce settlement, hardline approach. But everything else to do with Green, Global Warming, Covid, Lockdowns, Mad Economics, Social and Business destruction is complete anathema to me. I have moved from being a tentative short term supporter of him as a facilitator to change and a better party structure with the wholesale dumping of Heathite Majorite Clarkeite Cameronite wet soft policies in favour of an actual right of centre administration has been blown out of the water by stupidity, sentimentality and gross incompetence. And it was all so easy to foresee. We can't say we were not warned by many on this Forum. You were all quite correct. He is unable to focus, is easily led, does faff about and has no core plan, no plan B, no exit stategy, and no economic policy. He exists on bluster, hope, winging it, and a blind faith in experts sorting out a vaccine and an economic plan to put matters right. But who else was there/is there? And who in Labour? Mr GreyDrab and his calculated 'take no position on anything' except Corbyn-baiting? It is all so bloody hopeless and useless. Would a Priti Patel figure or the lady herself satisfy you? |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 1, 2020 14:43:51 GMT
Yes, it is an interesting situation. I accept that well made point. I was a tentative supporter of Johnson. I did vote for him in the leadership election. I did vote for them in 2019. I was/am a supporter of the Johnson/Cummings axis of political reform. I do want a hard Bexit and would prefer a No Deal, no divorce settlement, hardline approach. But everything else to do with Green, Global Warming, Covid, Lockdowns, Mad Economics, Social and Business destruction is complete anathema to me. I have moved from being a tentative short term supporter of him as a facilitator to change and a better party structure with the wholesale dumping of Heathite Majorite Clarkeite Cameronite wet soft policies in favour of an actual right of centre administration has been blown out of the water by stupidity, sentimentality and gross incompetence. And it was all so easy to foresee. We can't say we were not warned by many on this Forum. You were all quite correct. He is unable to focus, is easily led, does faff about and has no core plan, no plan B, no exit stategy, and no economic policy. He exists on bluster, hope, winging it, and a blind faith in experts sorting out a vaccine and an economic plan to put matters right. But who else was there/is there? And who in Labour? Mr GreyDrab and his calculated 'take no position on anything' except Corbyn-baiting? It is all so bloody hopeless and useless. Would a Priti Patel figure or the lady herself satisfy you? Very definitely not. |
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nodealbrexiteer
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non aligned favour no deal brexit!
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Dec 1, 2020 15:33:24 GMT
Would a Priti Patel figure or the lady herself satisfy you? Very definitely not. Has she gone too soft for you  |
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carlton43
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 1, 2020 16:14:51 GMT
Has she gone too soft for you I am not a major critic but not a fan either. I think she lacks experience for that office and maybe competence? It is also a Party thing in that they always talk a good story but never stop the immigration nor turf out enough already here. They don't seem to have the bottle to take on the media, the race relations industry and the bloody civil service and give them all some bloody noses as I would. |
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nodealbrexiteer
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Dec 1, 2020 16:29:25 GMT
Has she gone too soft for you I am not a major critic but not a fan either. I think she lacks experience for that office and maybe competence? It is also a Party thing in that they always talk a good story but never stop the immigration nor turf out enough already here. They don't seem to have the bottle to take on the media, the race relations industry and the bloody civil service and give them all some bloody noses as I would. I kind of anticipated that might be something like your answer. It does seem to be for the public that the Tories are the party to control immigration (but don't quite match in reality). |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 1, 2020 16:31:23 GMT
I am not a major critic but not a fan either. I think she lacks experience for that office and maybe competence? It is also a Party thing in that they always talk a good story but never stop the immigration nor turf out enough already here. They don't seem to have the bottle to take on the media, the race relations industry and the bloody civil service and give them all some bloody noses as I would. I kind of anticipated that might be something like your answer. It does seem to be for the public that the Tories are the party to control immigration (but don't quite match in reality). Usually it's because of the demands of business. We will see if this reverts to being the case. |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Dec 1, 2020 22:26:16 GMT
It's clearly a no from quite how little of a grip Dominic Raab actually had whilst Boris was in hospital. I too voted for Boris, mainly because Esther McVey did not make it onto the ballot paper. I'd still like to see Esther leading the awkward squad into Downing Street.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 11:21:59 GMT
Call me wet but I don't like the phrasing of the question.
Anyway I don't think it would have made much difference because part of what dictated how we responded was how well prepared or otherwise the Health Service, wider government, businesses and society were before the start of the pandemic. Also, as already pointed out, it wouldn't have magically lead to a vaccine being developed any earlier.
As LDCaerdydd says Raab would've become PM, Gove and Hancock would surely still be there (a wider reshuffle would've been unlikely in such circumstances); as would Vallance and Whitty. That preserves the rest of the core decision-making team that we've had in reality.
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