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Post by islington on Nov 9, 2024 22:29:09 GMT
Yes and if they have any sense which they do, they will but expecting rational objective analysis from a defeated party 96 hours after an election is stupid. They're upset - they're hurting and they're lashing out as most do when they were upset and you may enjoy this (don't know why) but it's not indicative of what the discussions and debate will become in time. The Conservatives here were almost incoherent 96 hours after polling - most of them still are, struggling to understand how and why they lost - the biggest defeat in their history in terms of the popular vote and the lowest number of seats and yet most of them still seem to think they'll be back in Government in 2028 or 2029. Yes, I'm enjoying it. They've had the time of their lives in recent years looking down upon and goading the deplorables and the people they call human garbage. So it's karma. The 'garbage' isn't taking it any more. There's more than a straw in the wind from Frank Luntz. Proper insight, I think. Luntz is talking of 'paycheck to paycheck voters'. The honest people who struggle to keep going. In the past these people were Democrats. Luntz notes how this category of voters have shifted. And they include whites and blacks,Latinos, men, women. People voting on racial lines is weakening. People are coming together. The old categorisations are breaking down. Trump knew this. The Dems still don't - they're stuck on the page of throwing abuse at 'their' voters who are no longer their voters. America has a brighter future. People are coming together, leaving their old siloes behind I don't normally agree with you on very much, and if I were a US citizen I'd most certainly have voted for Harris - but I have to admit, I'm enjoying it too. |
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Post by johnloony on Nov 9, 2024 22:32:42 GMT
An astonishing post with a ton of even more astonishing replies full of people explaining that they have cut ties with children, parents, brothers, sisters... over politics. In all seriousness I think this is a sign of mental illness. The only example of that in my experience was with one of my distant cousins (distant in the sense of relationship, not geography). He lives in inner London and he often used to come and visit us at my parents’ home. In 2017, completely out of the blue, he wrote on Facebook that I had long shown far-right tendencies, that I had given to him a leaflet from the Britain First Party, and that I was the worst type of Trump supporter (!). That is of course completely the opposite of the truth in all respects (I have never even been in possession of a BFP leaflet, let alone given one to him). I discussed the matter with my siblings, and initially we thought he was drunk or that he had mistaken me for someone else. But when we challenged him on it and pointed out that it was all rubbish, he doubled down on repeating the accusations. I think that he still occasionally has contact or visits with my sister and/or mother, but I have completely cut him off and have no desire to contact him again unless he apologises. I banned him from coming to my father’s funeral, although he probably wouldn’t have made the journey to Norfolk anyway. P.S. Another example: in 1974, my cousin (aged 21) married a young woman who was only 20 but she was divorced with a baby son. His parents, my uncle and aunt, were very conservative and very religious. They shunned him and banned their other children from attending the wedding. They were eventually reconciled when they had more children, and my uncle realised he wanted a relationship with his grandchildren. I was completely unaware of this story until maybe 15 or 20 years ago. |
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spqr
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Post by spqr on Nov 9, 2024 22:43:19 GMT
Yes, I'm enjoying it. They've had the time of their lives in recent years looking down upon and goading the deplorables and the people they call human garbage. So it's karma. The 'garbage' isn't taking it any more. There's more than a straw in the wind from Frank Luntz. Proper insight, I think. Luntz is talking of 'paycheck to paycheck voters'. The honest people who struggle to keep going. In the past these people were Democrats. Luntz notes how this category of voters have shifted. And they include whites and blacks,Latinos, men, women. People voting on racial lines is weakening. People are coming together. The old categorisations are breaking down. Trump knew this. The Dems still don't - they're stuck on the page of throwing abuse at 'their' voters who are no longer their voters. America has a brighter future. People are coming together, leaving their old siloes behind I don't normally agree with you on very much, and if I were a US citizen I'd most certainly have voted for Harris - but I have to admit, I'm enjoying it too. Is there that much to enjoy? The sight of narcissistic pseudo-liberals throwing tantrums can be an entertaining prospect... but there seem to be far fewer of them doing so this time than there were in 2016. Most just seem sad and resigned. |
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Post by manchesterman on Nov 9, 2024 22:58:35 GMT
An astonishing post with a ton of even more astonishing replies full of people explaining that they have cut ties with children, parents, brothers, sisters... over politics. In all seriousness I think this is a sign of mental illness. Most people who voted for Trump are not fascists. THat's ridiculous! My own brother is sadly a way-down-the-rabbit-hole, believer in every conspiracy theory (from 9/11, anti-vax, deepstate etc etc) Trump-worshipping cultist. But he's still my brother and I will be there for him whenever he needs me! These people (in the tweet) are sick! |
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Post by observer on Nov 9, 2024 23:05:09 GMT
I don't normally agree with you on very much, and if I were a US citizen I'd most certainly have voted for Harris - but I have to admit, I'm enjoying it too. Is there that much to enjoy? The sight of narcissistic pseudo-liberals throwing tantrums can be an entertaining prospect... but there seem to be far fewer of them doing so this time than there were in 2016. Most just seem sad and resigned. Yes, it's good that they're not rioting this time as I had thought they may. But even so, they're not coming to terms. They're still refusing to accept that other people have legitimate views. They don't even want to hear other views. But it's good that they're not being violent. Perhaps it's the start of a re-evaluation for them. But I still wonder how a liberal society has become so intolerant and aggressive in the last 20 years |
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Post by doktorb🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️ on Nov 9, 2024 23:05:49 GMT
vote-2012.proboards.com/post/1566660/threadTo reply to this thread, it's not okay for the (presumptive) leader of Country X to refuse the nomination of ambassador from country Z. But Trump has made this okay. He's made ripping up the rules okay. He's made ignoring convention okay. Conservatives used to believe in the law. Because of Trump, the rule of law doesn't matter. Conservatives used to believe in national sovereignty. Because of Trump, national identity no longer matters Conservatives used to ignore private lives. Because of Trump, bedroom doors must be knocked through and security cameras must be installed in GP surgeries. Conservatives used to believe in sound money and legitimate trade. Because of Trump they only believe in controlling markets and distorting currencies.
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Post by observer on Nov 9, 2024 23:14:08 GMT
vote-2012.proboards.com/post/1566660/threadTo reply to this thread, it's not okay for the (presumptive) leader of Country X to refuse the nomination of ambassador from country Z. But Trump has made this okay. He's made ripping up the rules okay. He's made ignoring convention okay. Conservatives used to believe in the law. Because of Trump, the rule of law doesn't matter. Conservatives used to believe in national sovereignty. Because of Trump, national identity no longer matters Conservatives used to ignore private lives. Because of Trump, bedroom doors must be knocked through and security cameras must be installed in GP surgeries. Conservatives used to believe in sound money and legitimate trade. Because of Trump they only believe in controlling markets and distorting currencies. When I was a journalist I spoke to a vicar about a story I was writing. He spoke about 'faces in the fire' - how, if we stare at the embers long enough, we can see things - like faces - that aren't actually there. Sometimes because we want to. Wise words! I don't recognise the picture you describe of Trump and what he plans to do |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 9, 2024 23:18:25 GMT
This is bizarre - I have family who have gone in fundamentally different political directions from me, but we still get on really well. We would never consider cutting each other off over our political choices - we will make it clear how stupid we think they are, but God forbid anybody from outside the family thinks their opinion is valued about our family member. I love my crazy, dysfunctional, opinionated and annoying family - my eldest sister annoyed about my just older sister and I going over to Derry next week, for no sensible reason. She will sulk, and then we will go out for tea. People need to grow up. Some people these days are more focussed on the approval of random people off the internet than people they actually know. |
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WJ
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Post by WJ on Nov 9, 2024 23:20:03 GMT
Oh come on people. Brexit supporters who refuse to talk to Remainers. It's the same thing. Right wing conservatives are the most intolerant of the lot, calling the rest of us "woke" and using that as a thick concrete wall of silence. There's actually some evidence to suggest that "progressives" are more readily intolerant of conservatives' views than vice versa. The much-maligned former academic Noah Carl (who has experience of this at first hand) summarises some of that data here: noahcarl.medium.com/who-doesnt-want-to-hear-the-other-side-s-view-9a7cdf3ad702Note that Carl cites a YouGov poll which found that Leave voters were much more likely to say they wouldn’t mind if a relative married someone who supported Remain than the other way round. Yet here you are again, attacking the "other side" for behaving in a reprehensible way and yet never ever admitting that your own might also be guilty. And then you have the cheek to whine about "intolerance". While I find the theory plausible. It would have been fascinating to get Leave/Remain data before the referendum because I could imagine that there's a "sore loser" element to this (see also that Clinton vs Trump supporter data). In a world where remain had won or Trump had lost in 2016, I could imagine the results being flipped. |
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Post by observer on Nov 9, 2024 23:33:10 GMT
There's actually some evidence to suggest that "progressives" are more readily intolerant of conservatives' views than vice versa. The much-maligned former academic Noah Carl (who has experience of this at first hand) summarises some of that data here: noahcarl.medium.com/who-doesnt-want-to-hear-the-other-side-s-view-9a7cdf3ad702Note that Carl cites a YouGov poll which found that Leave voters were much more likely to say they wouldn’t mind if a relative married someone who supported Remain than the other way round. Yet here you are again, attacking the "other side" for behaving in a reprehensible way and yet never ever admitting that your own might also be guilty. And then you have the cheek to whine about "intolerance". While I find the theory plausible. It would have been fascinating to get Leave/Remain data before the referendum because I could imagine that there's a "sore loser" element to this (see also that Clinton vs Trump supporter data). In a world where remain had won or Trump had lost in 2016, I could imagine the results being flipped. It's possible, but I doubt it. I think the woke are particularly angry people...and it has nothing to do with winning or losing. An example with one of my nieces: she is well known in the family for lecturing us even if there hasn't been an election to win or lose. During the coronavirus nonsense, for example, she would tolerate no dissent from mask wearing, lockdowns, back etc. she hadn't won. She hadn't lost. But she talked down to us - being told to leave the table at one point. I think there is something inherently intolerant and illiberal about woke ideology. I wonder how our society has got like this. I remember elections in the days of yore when, if you lost, you'd put up with it and hope for better luck next time |
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 9, 2024 23:50:48 GMT
But I have totally different views from yours.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Nov 10, 2024 0:03:31 GMT
Oh come on people. Brexit supporters who refuse to talk to Remainers. It's the same thing. Right wing conservatives are the most intolerant of the lot, calling the rest of us "woke" and using that as a thick concrete wall of silence. If recent democrats are refusing to talk to relatives who supported Trump or MAGA, they deserve our respect. Love trumps hate. Scotland has been very polarised by the independence debate, though it is dissipating now, and I am thankful this sort of attitude does not prevail. There are probably some like this, but the question splits families, couples, friends, work colleagues, employers and employees etc., and yet we all get on just fine despite being an unusually politically engaged country. This is true of me. I have family members, friends, lovers etc. who are on the other side and it makes no difference whatsoever. A man's or woman's conscience is their own. It's also true that, ultimately, this sort of resentment is not a healthy way to live a person's life. Peoples' lives will be much poorer if people start cutting loads of people out for political reasons. |
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Post by uthacalthing on Nov 10, 2024 0:20:27 GMT
It looks like the Democrats are like our Retainers: bitter, snobbish and slow to learn. It must be draining My retainers are loyal, hard working and silent. |
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cathyc
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Post by cathyc on Nov 10, 2024 0:21:47 GMT
While I find the theory plausible. It would have been fascinating to get Leave/Remain data before the referendum because I could imagine that there's a "sore loser" element to this (see also that Clinton vs Trump supporter data). In a world where remain had won or Trump had lost in 2016, I could imagine the results being flipped. It's possible, but I doubt it. I think the woke are particularly angry people...and it has nothing to do with winning or losing. An example with one of my nieces: she is well known in the family for lecturing us even if there hasn't been an election to win or lose. During the coronavirus nonsense, for example, she would tolerate no dissent from mask wearing, lockdowns, back etc. she hadn't won. She hadn't lost. But she talked down to us - being told to leave the table at one point. I think there is something inherently intolerant and illiberal about woke ideology. I wonder how our society has got like this. I remember elections in the days of yore when, if you lost, you'd put up with it and hope for better luck next time Greetings from January 6th, 2021. |
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graham
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Post by graham on Nov 10, 2024 0:24:54 GMT
Oh come on people. Brexit supporters who refuse to talk to Remainers. It's the same thing. Right wing conservatives are the most intolerant of the lot, calling the rest of us "woke" and using that as a thick concrete wall of silence. If recent democrats are refusing to talk to relatives who supported Trump or MAGA, they deserve our respect. Love trumps hate. Scotland has been very polarised by the independence debate, though it is dissipating now, and I am thankful this sort of attitude does not prevail. There are probably some like this, but the question splits families, couples, friends, work colleagues, employers and employees etc., and yet we all get on just fine despite being an unusually politically engaged country. This is true of me. I have family members, friends, lovers etc. who are on the other side and it makes no difference whatsoever. A man's or woman's conscience is their own. It's also true that, ultimately, this sort of resentment is not a healthy way to live a person's life. Peoples' lives will be much poorer if people start cutting loads of people out for political reasons. On the other hand, I can well imagine SPD families in Germany back in the 1930s not wishing to have any forther contact with a relative who had joined the Nazis - or the SA/SS. |
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Post by uthacalthing on Nov 10, 2024 0:25:23 GMT
True, but a sensible negotiator keeps everything on the board until the negotiation - in order to trade away things that are "lost" but get things in return. This is exactly why I expect Putin to outmanoeuvre Trump. Genuine question. Are you okay with the Palestinian position on the "right of return" because a sensible negotiator keeps everything on the board until the negotiation. Plastecine should keep it on the negotiating table as something they can concede. Ditto Ukraine with Crimea. The USA should tell both of them to give over. |
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tomc
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Post by tomc on Nov 10, 2024 0:49:30 GMT
It looks like the Democrats are like our Retainers: bitter, snobbish and slow to learn. It must be draining Four days after an election, anyone who thinks they know definitively why one side won and the other lost knows nothing about politics at all. It's all emotion at this time. There are plenty of Conservatives over here, who four months after their defeat, haven't got to grips or come to terms with how and why they lost and are still in the anger and denial phase. No there aren't. Everyone in the party knows the reason the election was lost was because the government was shit, Johnson lurched from crisis to crisis and the Parliamentary party was undisciplined. There is no denial and very little anger. |
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Post by uthacalthing on Nov 10, 2024 0:52:10 GMT
Reminds me of the guy on the Question Time audience about a year ago who insisted that he was on "average earnings" when he revealed he only earned £90k a year. Was genuinely astonished when the audience all laughed at him! I would have laughed at him too but I can see how it happens, his peer group are all on £90k a year, its far from abnormal. And yet they are struggling. I would not take being laughed at or applauded by a Question Time audience as evidence of anything. I do wonder about GPs. Their daily drudge is spending time with people in poverty. People from shit housing with no prospects begging them for solutions to real and imaginary health problems and the magic tickets to benefits. They earn over £100k from the taxpayer teat. Do they consider themselves well paid? Do they consider themselves simply better examples of humanity and as such worth it like a 19th Century Tory landowner? Does this point to why they increasingly prefer "virtual" consultations with their smelly clients? How would GPs feel about their income being a matter of public record? Probably wrong thread |
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tomc
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Post by tomc on Nov 10, 2024 0:57:44 GMT
Those of us who have been around a while can recall lots of times when supporters of parties vaguely of the left have been told what they should do by ‘well-meaning’ critics. Those ‘lessons’ can often be backed up by articles suggesting that they will never win again. I’d take it all in good part. Elections are normally heavily influenced by family finances and (as I’ve said before) I’m pretty sure that higher inflation and the interest rates used to control that played a large part (and Trump’s messaging certainly stressed that). Biden threw a lot of taxpayer money on the fire (following Trump’s tax cuts) and I’m sure that lesson can be learned. It was already evident that most countries (and among them countries where the broader left are in power) are moving toward nativist and protectionist policies. Biden certainly followed some of that path but Trump’s rhetoric was more direct and he had engineered obstructions to tighter border measures (but Biden could have pursued those when he had the legislative path clear). I don’t doubt that some vote on cultural issues above other things. That’s always been true. For example faith adherence has long been a key driver for some. It’s fair to say that support for equal rights generally hasn’t been backed by everyone and the US has a long, troubled and violent history on aspects of this. Parties genuinely of the left are unlikely to indulge any desire to deny equality but the strategy, tactics and messages can certainly be adjusted. But it’s worth stating the obvious. In first past the post systems in which elections are largely binary choices (not what I want, but that’s what both the USA and UK have) voters need an alternative when dissatisfied. The pendulum doesn’t swing at regular intervals but it almost inevitably happens, aided by the strong imperative for the opposition party to devise a winning formula. I’m sure the Democrats will adjust and I’m equally sure that the Republicans haven’t found a formula for perpetual success. Can you recall instances of parties getting mullered, not changing at all and coming back to win strongly? There probably are some but Labour certainly isn't one as the last two times you ended a long period of Tory government involved ditching electorally damaging messaging and policy. I don't see the Dems roaring back as they are now when in 2028 they will have an opponent without Trump's cultish appeal but with much more general appeal and debating ability. |
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Post by uthacalthing on Nov 10, 2024 1:02:07 GMT
Luntz also makes the interesting point that many people still don't like Trump, but they know the swamp has to be drained. They trust Trump to do it Meanwhile the Dems affect fake laughter at any mention of the concept of the swamp...and they insult people who raise the subject as 'conspiracy theorists'. The following isn't Luntz, it's me: if the identity politics voting blocks actually refuse to vote along the lines they are told to vote, then what is left for the Left? Their ideology, their core beliefs crumble. They have an empty tank intellectually. The Dems need to think on. But they daren't confront what the voters have told them With additional caveats. 1/ Drain the swamp. 2/ Slap the deranged 3/ Drill Baby Drill 4/ Secure borders I would vote for any candidate that I believed could deliver 2 from 4. |
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