neilm
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Post by neilm on Oct 29, 2020 19:19:42 GMT
Visiting Chile 2 years ago, my guide (a German Chilean in her early 30s) was distinctly disconcerted to find out I had been in Chile just before the coup, had friends who were interned during it, and had rather more knowledge of politics of the time than she did. In particular our views of Allende were very different. Politics was off limits after this, which I didn’t mind as it wasn’t why I was revisiting Chile after more than 40 years. The move to a new constitution is wholly positive, and a way of purging the conflicts of the past. This is why it has considerable support among more conservative Chileans, and is not a partisan measure. What were your differences on Allende? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2020 19:35:45 GMT
You truly are lacking in anything approaching a thread of humanity. One of this country's foremost experts in palliative care, a former contemplative nun and spiritual writer dismissed as perhaps sharing "a typical example of a Marxist invented torture porn sob story." It's a question of the burden of proof. Was Allende the Nicolas Maduro of his day who presided over a wrecked economy, lawless farm and business invasions, the arming of Marxist thugs, shortages of everyday goods? Yes, this isn't even disputed although Allende's supporters like Maduro's today blame the economic damage on Yankee interference. Did the Chilean Congress vote overwhelmingly to urge military and police intervention to save Chile from this calamity? Yes, not disputed Was the new Government faced with a violent terrorist campaign from Marxist terrorists MID and other former Allende supporters? Yes Did the new Government deal with this problem through the use of large scale exile of opponents as well as imprisonment and death sentences for alleged terrorists? Yes, again not disputed Would these harsh measures lead to the punishment of some of the innocent along with the guilty? Yes, inevitably. All of the above is not disputed. However the next question is whether the harsh measures included lurid and imaginative tortures carried out by security forces on MIR prisoners? Well here's where burden of proof comes in All the people here shocked at the suggestion that fake atrocity propaganda is a thing. May I remind you that atrocity propaganda is a normal part of war. It was used to justify the Iraq war, it's been used countless times in history. The phrase 'black legend' comes from the use of this kind of propaganda to attack the old Spanish Empire and the Catholic Church. It's as old as the hills. Marxist terrorists and their co-conspirators had every motive and inclination to create such propaganda to justify their own crimes and blackened the names of their prosecutors. It doesn't prove that what they say is untrue but it does mean that the burden of proof is on them to prove their accusations I speak 4 languages to some degree and none of them give me any strong enough words to describe just how vile an individual you truly are. |
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Post by John Chanin on Oct 29, 2020 19:38:47 GMT
Visiting Chile 2 years ago, my guide (a German Chilean in her early 30s) was distinctly disconcerted to find out I had been in Chile just before the coup, had friends who were interned during it, and had rather more knowledge of politics of the time than she did. In particular our views of Allende were very different. Politics was off limits after this, which I didn’t mind as it wasn’t why I was revisiting Chile after more than 40 years. The move to a new constitution is wholly positive, and a way of purging the conflicts of the past. This is why it has considerable support among more conservative Chileans, and is not a partisan measure. What were your differences on Allende? Fair enough. I saw Allende as a positive progressive force, trying to reduce the inequalities in Chilean society, and using modern (in 1972) economic thinking to produce a more productive economy, which would not only be more equal, but would raise the GNP (shorthand for better off overall). She saw Allende as someone who meaned well but alienated large chunks of Chilean society, and failed to seek consensus for the changes he sought, which were arguably not all desirable anyway. In line with present Chilean thinking she had no time at all for Pinochet, who is persona non grata in present day Chile. But Allende was to blame for Pinochet. I should note that I was a postgrad at Sussex University’s Institute of Development Studies at the time, which had close links with Chilean universities. It also had strong supporters of Allende, and also of the Christian Democrats. The latters support of the coup led to poisonous confrontations which ripped the institute apart. |
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Post by corker on Oct 29, 2020 20:25:46 GMT
One of the real problems with the 20th century has been that the left has stopped taking the view that every issue is up for debate in every generation, but that the left thinks it won every argument circa 2006. The people who oppose racism, sexism, homophobia have no idea how to defeat real racism, sexism or homophobia, except by shouting ‘Bigot!’ like the boy who cried wolf at those who disagree with them. The left even think they won the debate on trans rights before the debate on trans rights was even had. So here we have some educated men, faced with the very mildest defence of Pinochet’s regime, with great detail and explanation (plus the fairly innocuous statement that Allende’s dictatorship was worse than Pinochet’s), who think dismissive one-liners like “Christ Alive”, “There are fascists on this site”, and “You are a vile individual” suffice to counter views they don’t like (and not one of these is actually an argument). Now it is reported on vote-2012.proboards.com/post/1012766/thread the Moderation thread that, rather than actually counter views they don't like, some of these people have reported the poster in question to the Admins, in the hope the nasty views will go away without any debate. Perhaps they will next reach into Alinsky’s handbook and personally mock the proponents of the views they don’t like. Anything but face up to the fact the argument is never won and you have to keep putting arguments up. This is why the left will ultimately lose the culture war, even if Trump loses next week: (a) they have no arguments, and (b) though today, you can irrationally scream “Bigot! Fascist! Bigotry and fascism are evil! Lock the fascists and bigots up!”, what happens when it's turned round and the right irrationally scream “Socialist! Communist! Socialism and communism are evil! Lock the socialists and communists up!”, bearing in mind it’s the right who have the guns?[/a] |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,005
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 29, 2020 22:15:05 GMT
Having no skin in this game, as a Liberal, Allende was democratically elected and pursued policies that were potentially autocratic and divisive but before any one party state was enabled it was overthrown by a military dictatorship who were extremely oppressive to anyone who didn't fit in with their political and economic preferences.
Chile is the wealthiest country per capita in South America, but has horrendous income equality which is likely down to a lack of democracy at all until 31 years ago.
Knock yourself out if anyone wants to defend a substantial, murderous regime under the military and frankly I question your commitment to democracy.
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Post by greenchristian on Oct 29, 2020 23:49:29 GMT
You truly are lacking in anything approaching a thread of humanity. One of this country's foremost experts in palliative care, a former contemplative nun and spiritual writer dismissed as perhaps sharing "a typical example of a Marxist invented torture porn sob story." It's a question of the burden of proof. Was Allende the Nicolas Maduro of his day who presided over a wrecked economy, lawless farm and business invasions, the arming of Marxist thugs, shortages of everyday goods? Yes, this isn't even disputed although Allende's supporters like Maduro's today blame the economic damage on Yankee interference. Did the Chilean Congress vote overwhelmingly to urge military and police intervention to save Chile from this calamity? Yes, not disputed Was the new Government faced with a violent terrorist campaign from Marxist terrorists MIR and other former Allende supporters? Yes Did the new Government deal with this problem through the use of large scale exile of opponents as well as imprisonment and death sentences for alleged terrorists? Yes, again not disputed Would these harsh measures lead to the punishment of some of the innocent along with the guilty? Yes, inevitably. All of the above is not disputed. However the next question is whether the harsh measures included lurid and imaginative tortures carried out by security forces on MIR prisoners? Well here's where burden of proof comes in All the people here shocked at the suggestion that fake atrocity propaganda is a thing. May I remind you that atrocity propaganda is a normal part of war. It was used to justify the Iraq war, it's been used countless times in history. The phrase 'black legend' comes from the use of this kind of propaganda to attack the old Spanish Empire and the Catholic Church. It's as old as the hills. Marxist terrorists and their co-conspirators had every motive and inclination to create such propaganda to justify their own crimes and blackened the names of their prosecutors. It doesn't prove that what they say is untrue but it does mean that the burden of proof is on them to prove their accusations Um, what? We know that Pinochet's regime operated torture centres, and engaged in numerous other human rights violations. Therefore, the prior probability of Dr Cassidy's account being true is quite high before looking into the details. CatholicLeft has pointed out that her testimony is not seriously contested by anybody with actual knowledge of her or of the situation. So the burden of proof here is actually on your claim that she was making it up.
Since the burden of proof is on you, then to convince anybody else that your claim is likely true you will have to actually present some evidence for your case.
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Oct 30, 2020 0:29:36 GMT
Um, what? We know that Pinochet's regime operated torture centres We "know" that do we? What is the evidence for your claim that "Pinochet's regime operated torture centres"? I know that plenty of former Marxist terrorist prisoners who claim to have been tortured in these alleged "torture centres" but they are hardly impartial witnesses. They would have every reason to fabricate and then copy one another's fabrications. Doesn't necessarily prove that any of the jails in which these prisoners were held really were "torture centres" So what is the evidence? Again, that is extremely well documented and is pretty much at the level of asking "what the evidence of concentration camps in Germany?". This is a well-established fact and your behaviour is just plain negationnism at this point. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 30, 2020 0:42:36 GMT
Um, what? We know that Pinochet's regime operated torture centres We "know" that do we? What is the evidence for your claim that "Pinochet's regime operated torture centres"? I know that plenty of former Marxist terrorist prisoners who claim to have been tortured in these alleged "torture centres" but they are hardly impartial witnesses. They would have every reason to fabricate and then copy one another's fabrications. Doesn't necessarily prove that any of the jails in which these prisoners were held really were "torture centres" So what is the evidence? Jacobo Timerman. Read his quite devastating centre-right attacks on Pinochet. |
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Post by greenchristian on Oct 30, 2020 0:53:23 GMT
Um, what? We know that Pinochet's regime operated torture centres We "know" that do we? What is the evidence for your claim that "Pinochet's regime operated torture centres"? I know that plenty of former Marxist terrorist prisoners who claim to have been tortured in these alleged "torture centres" but they are hardly impartial witnesses. They would have every reason to fabricate and then copy one another's fabrications. Doesn't necessarily prove that any of the jails in which these prisoners were held really were "torture centres" So what is the evidence? Firstly, there's no such thing as an impartial witness to torture. Unless a regime is openly torturing people on the streets, witnesses are either the victims or the perpetrators of torture.
If you want evidence, how about looking at the 1983 Amnesty International report on Chile or the findings of Chile's 2004 national commission on political detention and torture, which heard evidence from 35,000 torture victims? Your claim that tens of thousands of people were fabricating their testimonies of being tortured is absolutely incredible, and yet the only "evidence" you have offered of this is the claim that the victims had a motive for fabricating their stories (though you haven't actually said what that motive was).
And let's not forget that the person you initially accused of fabricating her claim to be a torture victim was not a Marxist terrorist. She was a doctor who treated a patient and then didn't turn him over to a brutal authoritarian regime. Quite frankly, at this point I'd say that your accusations have crossed over into being actually libellous unless you can provide some actual evidence in support of your claim.
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Oct 30, 2020 2:21:33 GMT
Having no skin in this game, as a Liberal "For everyone, who deserves to be named a Liberal, it was entirely clear, that a military-dictatorship was preferable to Allende's cryptocommunistic agenda." (E.v.KÜHNELT-LEDDIHN) |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Oct 30, 2020 2:57:23 GMT
Having no skin in this game, as a Liberal "For everyone, who deserves to be named a Liberal, it was entirely clear, that a military-dictatorship was preferable to Allende's cryptocommunistic agenda." (E.v.KÜHNELT-LEDDIHN) Proving that, like we seen in Germany and Bolivia, Liberals, if having to choose between a socialist and a fascist, will choose the fascist 100% of the time. |
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Khunanup
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Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 30, 2020 3:24:56 GMT
Having no skin in this game, as a Liberal "For everyone, who deserves to be named a Liberal, it was entirely clear, that a military-dictatorship was preferable to Allende's cryptocommunistic agenda." (E.v.KÜHNELT-LEDDIHN) Are you ever going to do some thinking for yourself or are you forever going to let others do your thinking for you? Though if we're going to play this silly game of rent-a-quote: 'Sometimes the greatest choice is to make no choice at all' (Captain John Sheridan). A far more profound and useful understsnding of the human condition than any number of marginal, eccentric social 'thinkers' whose philosophy hasn't aged well. |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Oct 30, 2020 5:19:34 GMT
"For everyone, who deserves to be named a Liberal, it was entirely clear, that a military-dictatorship was preferable to Allende's cryptocommunistic agenda." (E.v.KÜHNELT-LEDDIHN) a fascist Mr.Pinochet was certainly also a "racist" and "sexist" ... |
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on Oct 30, 2020 5:32:03 GMT
"For everyone, who deserves to be named a Liberal, it was entirely clear, that a military-dictatorship was preferable to Allende's cryptocommunistic agenda." (E.v.KÜHNELT-LEDDIHN) Are you ever going to do some thinking for yourself or are you forever going to let others do your thinking for you? Though if we're going to play this silly game of rent-a-quote: 'Sometimes the greatest choice is to make no choice at all' (Captain John Sheridan). A far more profound and useful understsnding of the human condition than any number of marginal, eccentric social 'thinkers' whose philosophy hasn't aged well. Ah - You are the one, who cannot endure erudition. Thus a v.KÜHNELT-LEDDIHN, who read LOCKE, MILL aso. and was in contact with v.HAYEK, ARON aso., is indeed nothing for You and Your comic-clowns. |
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iain
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Post by iain on Oct 30, 2020 10:16:47 GMT
"For everyone, who deserves to be named a Liberal, it was entirely clear, that a military-dictatorship was preferable to Allende's cryptocommunistic agenda." (E.v.KÜHNELT-LEDDIHN) Proving that, like we seen in Germany and Bolivia, Liberals, if having to choose between a socialist and a fascist, will choose the fascist 100% of the time. Oh grow up |
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Post by jollyroger93 on Oct 30, 2020 10:35:35 GMT
I came for the melt downs, i saw the melt downs, i enjoyed the melt downs.  |
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Post by jollyroger93 on Oct 30, 2020 10:42:16 GMT
Proving that, like we seen in Germany and Bolivia, Liberals, if having to choose between a socialist and a fascist, will choose the fascist 100% of the time. Why do you think it might be? Could it be that life under communism is so dreadful that people will go to extreme lengths to escape it? Might that just possibly be the fault of communists. Instead of blaming opposition to their politics as being motivated by greed or selfishness or ignorance or racism/sexism etc maybe communists could ask themselves the question "Is it possible that people go to extreme lengths to avoid living under our political program because we suck and our policies suck? Are we the baddies?" "When people are free to choose, they choose freedom" |
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 30, 2020 10:49:53 GMT
Why do you think it might be? Could it be that life under communism is so dreadful that people will go to extreme lengths to escape it? Might that just possibly be the fault of communists. Instead of blaming opposition to their politics as being motivated by greed or selfishness or ignorance or racism/sexism etc maybe communists could ask themselves the question "Is it possible that people go to extreme lengths to avoid living under our political program because we suck and our policies suck? Are we the baddies?" "When people are free to choose, they choose freedom" I'm not convinced. There are societies which appear to have a preference for strong authoritarian leaders. Or authoritarian measures |
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Post by greenchristian on Oct 30, 2020 11:01:43 GMT
Firstly, there's no such thing as an impartial witness to torture. Unless a regime is openly torturing people on the streets, witnesses are either the victims or the perpetrators of torture.
If you want evidence, how about looking at the 1983 Amnesty International report on Chile or the findings of Chile's 2004 national commission on political detention and torture, which heard evidence from 35,000 torture victims? Your claim that tens of thousands of people were fabricating their testimonies of being tortured is absolutely incredible, and yet the only "evidence" you have offered of this is the claim that the victims had a motive for fabricating their stories (though you haven't actually said what that motive was).
And let's not forget that the person you initially accused of fabricating her claim to be a torture victim was not a Marxist terrorist. She was a doctor who treated a patient and then didn't turn him over to a brutal authoritarian regime. Quite frankly, at this point I'd say that your accusations have crossed over into being actually libellous unless you can provide some actual evidence in support of your claim.
Firstly I have never said that Dr Cassidy fabricated her claims about torture. I said that her claim to have been politically neutral before her arrest was implausible. An injured MIR terrorist might be expected to be taken to a sympathetic Doctor. If she was not sympathetic to the terrorists why did she not report the whereabouts of this dangerous fugitive criminal to the police after she finished treating him? Doesn't prove she lied about her alleged torture but it does give her a possible political motive for doing so. The presumption of innocence is important. The Amnesty report is interesting but remember the medical examinations reported are being accried out by Doctors supportive of Amnesty. They will have been predisposed to accept patients reports at face value and would decidedly not be looking out for signs of deception or faking As for the 2004 Commission I haven't read it. The numbers of people giving testimony is not important, what is important is the quality of that testimony. People might ave all kinds of reasons for coming forward with fake testimony. Looking for sympathy, looking to defame former jailers and former political opponents and last but not least the prospect of financial compensation. This will particularly be the case if people know that their testimony will be subject to little to no cross examination. How many of those 35,000 witnesses were subject to forensic cross examination by lawyers representing those they accused? Also its highly implausible that in all those cases none were from people just looking for compensation, how many prosecutions for perjury have taken place, have even any investigations for perjury taken place? You see it doesn't matter if eyewitness testimony comes from three people, 35 or 35,000. What matters is how well the testimony stands up to being tested So if you don't accept medical examinations or eyewitness testimony from tens of thousands of people as evidence that torture happened what would you accept as evidence? And why do you feel the need to act as an apologist for the Pinochet regime anyway? |
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Post by greenchristian on Oct 30, 2020 12:03:26 GMT
So if you don't accept medical examinations or eyewitness testimony from tens of thousands of people as evidence that torture happened what would you accept as evidence? Not saying I wouldn't accept eyewitness testimony as evidence. It would depend how well that evidence has stood up to cross examination. So eyewitness testimony is only evidence if it's given in the context of an adversarial court system? You're obviously not a fan of the historical method.
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