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Post by Merseymike on Jun 1, 2020 22:58:34 GMT
The non-academic staff are likely to live near the university, in the larger cities, certainly in my experience. In the smaller towns like Lancaster or Bath, even more so. One of my lecturers at Bath only teaches a few hours per week. Before lockdown, she said she had been commuting from "Bradford" which I presumed meant Bradford-on-Avon. It turns out it was in fact the city in West Yorkshire! Ah, sessional work no doubt, doing a few hours here, a few hours there to try and get the experience for a post. I was working at three different places at once at one time, though the furthest away I've worked was Wrexham Casualisation is rife in the HE sector |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jun 2, 2020 5:44:54 GMT
Has it ever been proposed to end the choice of Students as to where they cast their vote? I’m not persuaded myself that the great majority have much interest, knowledge or long term commitment regarding the wider community in which their University sits. I imagine most base their choice wholly on where it would be most influential, which is logical and understandable. I’m not sure how right that is though.
Sheffield has always had a largish number of former students who settle in the city long term, after they graduate, having made it their home.
Maybe a higher number than in many places, but students making a long term commitment to where they study shouldn't I think be dismissed as blythly as you do.
Extra question, are you counting 'non voting' international students in your commitment statement.
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jun 2, 2020 5:48:11 GMT
The 1968 locals were of course exceptionally good for the Conservatives.
True,
The next highest was in 1971, the Conservatives were only at 73.5%.
The drop is still huge.
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ilerda
Conservative
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Post by ilerda on Jun 2, 2020 6:23:44 GMT
Hallam/Fulwood may not have had major boundaries over the years, but it has certainly undergone major demographic changes. The inclusion of the two large student "villages" at Endcliffe and Ranmoor in this ward is not only foolish in terms of community links, but also adds around 4,000 student voters to the electorate. In addition to this there has been quite a lot of churn in terms of the type of employment, with public sector now accounting for a much larger percentage of the electorate. And I say this as the candidate who achieved the record low vote for Conservatives in this ward (not my proudest moment, but also a reflection of the fact it's no longer a Conservative target seat, given how the makeup of the Conservative vote has changed in recent years). Why is a relatively exclusive residential area like Hallam now so much more public sector dominated than before? I ask this as I'd have thought there are generally fewer public sector jobs than there were in the 70s, say, and it is hardly as if those work in the public sector are hugely well paid compared to the private sector (in many cases, the opposite is true). Is it a result of a lack of well-paid private sector jobs in cities such as Sheffield which means public sector workers are better able to afford to live in nice areas than in London and the SE? You certainly don't get a lot of public sector workers in the posher bits of Kent/SE London for instance. The expansion of the public sector white collar class has been huge in Sheffield, with two large universities and the NHS and council essentially replacing large chunks of the private sector. In these cases there are definitely some substantial pay packets that enable people to live in places like Fulwood. My personal experience is that very few places outside London and the Home Counties (ie London commuter belt) have anything like the number of well paid private sector jobs that they used to and which led to places like Fulwood deceloping. |
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 2, 2020 6:36:13 GMT
This is a generalisation and I don't have any proof but if we look at election results alone in all sorts of similar seats, middle class left wing voters appear to prefer to live in cities or their immediate suburbs rather than the typical commuter zones.
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YL
Non-Aligned
Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
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Post by YL on Jun 2, 2020 6:39:48 GMT
Why is a relatively exclusive residential area like Hallam now so much more public sector dominated than before? I ask this as I'd have thought there are generally fewer public sector jobs than there were in the 70s, say, and it is hardly as if those work in the public sector are hugely well paid compared to the private sector (in many cases, the opposite is true). Is it a result of a lack of well-paid private sector jobs in cities such as Sheffield which means public sector workers are better able to afford to live in nice areas than in London and the SE? You certainly don't get a lot of public sector workers in the posher bits of Kent/SE London for instance. One of the ways in which Sheffield Hallam (the constituency now, not the former ward) is most striking demographically is in census table KS608UK "Occupation": Hallam is ranked second in the UK for "Professional occupations", behind only Cambridge. However, it is only 115th for "Managers, directors and senior officials", so it's well above the median, but not strikingly high. In fact, there are quite a few constituencies with a similar, or even stronger, pattern. Here are the top 20 for professionals, together with their rank for managers etc.: 1. Cambridge (467) 2. Sheffield Hallam (115) 3. Bristol West (387) 4. Manchester Withington (436) 5. Edinburgh South (317) 6. Wimbledon (22=) 7. Islington South & Finsbury (120) 8. Islington North (273) 9=. Hampstead & Kilburn (22=) Richmond Park (4) 11. Oxford West & Abingdon (259) 12. Oxford East (574) 13. Holborn & St. Pancras (152) 14. Battersea (24) 15=. Belfast South (548) Hornsey & Wood Green (136) Leeds North East 18. Glasgow North (592) 19=. Dulwich & West Norwood (205) Tooting (87) The only ones which have more managers etc. than Hallam are those in London, and not all of them. There's also a lot of long term Tory (and Ulster Unionist!) decline in these places, and only one on this list is currently Tory-held (and that one probably wouldn't be if the opposition parties in London had sorted out their targeting strategies). |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Jun 2, 2020 7:21:38 GMT
One of my lecturers at Bath only teaches a few hours per week. Before lockdown, she said she had been commuting from "Bradford" which I presumed meant Bradford-on-Avon. It turns out it was in fact the city in West Yorkshire! I knew a female lecturer who had a weekly schedule of teaching at Edinburgh, Durham and Bristol Universities, all on temporary contracts. She lived in the South West, I think, and just travelled from one place to the next before returning home again. Ah, one of those unusual people who can answer the "how do you usually travel to work" question in the Census with "aeroplane". |
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Post by John Chanin on Jun 2, 2020 8:18:30 GMT
This is a generalisation and I don't have any proof but if we look at election results alone in all sorts of similar seats, middle class left wing voters appear to prefer to live in cities or their immediate suburbs rather than the typical commuter zones. Yes I have made this point on a number of occasions, and it is particularly visible in Birmingham. The well paid middle-class has become self-sorting according to culture and ideology (it’s wider than just political affiliation). Find out where someone lives and you will have a good idea what their views on a range of subjects are likely to be. |
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ilerda
Conservative
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Post by ilerda on Jun 2, 2020 8:27:08 GMT
This is a generalisation and I don't have any proof but if we look at election results alone in all sorts of similar seats, middle class left wing voters appear to prefer to live in cities or their immediate suburbs rather than the typical commuter zones. Certainly anecdotally this seems to be the case. And is probably a large part of why the sorts of middles class urban seats that the Conservatives won in 1983 have now shifted to being solidly Labour - the less left wing middle classes moved out of the cities to the commuter belt, to be replaced by students/graduates/young professionals/lower wage earners. |
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carlton43
Reform Party
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Post by carlton43 on Jun 2, 2020 9:01:50 GMT
This is a generalisation and I don't have any proof but if we look at election results alone in all sorts of similar seats, middle class left wing voters appear to prefer to live in cities or their immediate suburbs rather than the typical commuter zones. Yes I have made this point on a number of occasions, and it is particularly visible in Birmingham. The well paid middle-class has become self-sorting according to culture and ideology (it’s wider than just political affiliation). Find out where someone lives and you will have a good idea what their views on a range of subjects are likely to be. That is a most interesting point John and seems to deploy a form of heuristics in the analysis of the where and the why that people live where they do? We had a member of the Blue Room who would not live in a Labour ward let alone constituency and I found that an astonishing attitude to have and tried to think myself into a similar attitude as of an earlier age, and the implication for social and work reasons. I thought about it again in relation to our decision to quit rural Scotland for Sheffield, and with particular relation to the 'real' determinants' for where we are choosing to live, and the various constituent elements of those determinants. As always, I have to balance determinants dragging in various directions. The old versus the new; the stonebuilt versus more modern; centrality versus periphery; proximity versus quiet isolation. I am old and not working and have different determinants than would have been the case when more active and working. We opted for well served periphery to share proximity of country with access to city centre. But liked it to be ridge and free of potential flooding. To be level as to plot and access road and walk to shops. To be a broad and quiet road with no parking restrictions. To have a driveway for personal parking and garden to sit in. To have a range of shops and professional services within easy walk. To have two active pubs. To have a frequent bus service to city centre with easy seat choice our end. Good medical pactice. Local dentist. Much of that would not have been of importance under age of 50. But also conscious of 'buying' into a neighbourhood that is more settled, older, not trendy, and not multi-cultural. One that is quiet and has a certain 'understood' quietism and even anonymity, and a coherence of like types. Now, in many respects I am not a natural member of such a community which has a different cutural outlook and in some ways different core values; but adds a bed rock that is important at my age and status, and what I can afford (and only just at that!). Each sub area of the city has an identity of its own that is inherent in the underlying nature of the original built environment; but also as to the subsequent altered usage of that built environment; the contiguity of other often very different sub areas; and the pressures/attractions of those already dominating the sub area. These factors are a major reason for the changes in Hallam. The many leafy streets of substantial stone houses has morphed from sole occupation well off conservatives to institutional use, professional uses, school/child care, care homes, university uses, multiple occupation, student occupation, or even clearance and replacement with flats. Thus a large core vote over a large area has both diminished by other use and hugely grown with quite other types (by class, income, nationality but especially age) of resident population. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Jun 2, 2020 11:02:02 GMT
Labour have only ever had one councillor on Newbury/West Berkshire council since the 1973 reorganisation. That was in the 1970s and was in Hungerford Prior to the 1973 reorganisation, Labour had 3 seats on the previous Newbury borough council - presumably that could be the "ward" referred to. |
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Post by matureleft on Jun 2, 2020 11:44:12 GMT
Yes I have made this point on a number of occasions, and it is particularly visible in Birmingham. The well paid middle-class has become self-sorting according to culture and ideology (it’s wider than just political affiliation). Find out where someone lives and you will have a good idea what their views on a range of subjects are likely to be. That is a most interesting point John and seems to deploy a form of heuristics in the analysis of the where and the why that people live where they do? We had a member of the Blue Room who would not live in a Labour ward let alone constituency and I found that an astonishing attitude to have and tried to think myself into a similar attitude as of an earlier age, and the implication for social and work reasons. I thought about it again in relation to our decision to quit rural Scotland for Sheffield, and with particular relation to the 'real' determinants' for where we are choosing to live, and the various constituent elements of those determinants. As always, I have to balance determinants dragging in various directions. The old versus the new; the stonebuilt versus more modern; centrality versus periphery; proximity versus quiet isolation. I am old and not working and have different determinants than would have been the case when more active and working. We opted for well served periphery to share proximity of country with access to city centre. But liked it to be ridge and free of potential flooding. To be level as to plot and access road and walk to shops. To be a broad and quiet road with no parking restrictions. To have a driveway for personal parking and garden to sit in. To have a range of shops and professional services within easy walk. To have two active pubs. To have a frequent bus service to city centre with easy seat choice our end. Good medical pactice. Local dentist. Much of that would not have been of importance under age of 50. But also conscious of 'buying' into a neighbourhood that is more settled, older, not trendy, and not multi-cultural. One that is quiet and has a certain 'understood' quietism and even anonymity, and a coherence of like types. Now, in many respects I am not a natural member of such a community which has a different cutural outlook and in some ways different core values; but adds a bed rock that is important at my age and status, and what I can afford (and only just at that!). Each sub area of the city has an identity of its own that is inherent in the underlying nature of the original built environment; but also as to the subsequent altered usage of that built environment; the contiguity of other often very different sub areas; and the pressures/attractions of those already dominating the sub area. These factors are a major reason for the changes in Hallam. The many leafy streets of substantial stone houses has morphed from sole occupation well off conservatives to institutional use, professional uses, school/child care, care homes, university uses, multiple occupation, student occupation, or even clearance and replacement with flats. Thus a large core vote over a large area has both diminished by other use and hugely grown with quite other types (by class, income, nationality but especially age) of resident population. Good points. Having just moved from rural Derbyshire to Chichester (but being a bit younger than you) I can recognise the key locational drivers - public transport, local shops, GP etc, access to countryside but also the (tiny) city. I also found myself considering how I'd cope with stairs in a few years and what to do about that... Need for sufficient space for my partner's activities and sometimes lengthy visits by family.
It's certainly true that grand houses in formerly wealthy areas are still being converted (there's a vain local campaign here to preserve some of the big houses from flat conversion). That must have had a major effect in some cities and you can see areas that would have been quite grand now quite run down.
However I have noted that even relatively intact affluent city areas are just less Tory (in the same way that former council estates are less monolithically Labour (at least in claimed voting intention)) than they were when I first knocked on doors in the 1970s. That may be about where people with a particular view of the world choose to live as John Chanin suggests. I'd also gently suggest that the modern Conservative party is less appealing to relatively affluent, educated city-dwellers whether the private or public sector provides their income. I was increasingly frequently greeted with a friendly reception if I chose to canvass large established family housing, That was particularly true in a place like Cambridge where the Tory vote has become derisory over time in parts of the city. But I was surprised here to find a collection of Guardian readers (not that I read the paper myself!) in my small street. The rather grim remark from a Tory MP that when he saw books when looking through a door he assumed they wouldn't be Tory was pretty telling. Maybe once Brexit is over, with its sometimes pointed anti-elite and anti-intellectual messaging, many of these people will return to the fold. |
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Post by AdminSTB on Jun 2, 2020 16:23:56 GMT
Labour have only ever had one councillor on Newbury/West Berkshire council since the 1973 reorganisation. That was in the 1970s and was in Hungerford Prior to the 1973 reorganisation, Labour had 3 seats on the previous Newbury borough council - presumably that could be the "ward" referred to. NEWBURY BOROUGH, 1972 (according to the Reading Evening Post) EAST (2 seats) *Mike James, Lib 1265 David Beddoes, Lib 1068 Jim Crowe, Con 918 NORTH (3 seats) - 2 Lab gains from Con *Elizabeth Ganf, Con 829 Tony Freke, Lab 811 Bill Browne, Lab 765 Bill Dress, Lab 746 Frank Lewis, Con 722 *Bill Shelton, Con 719 WEST (2 seats) - 1 Lib gain from Con *Percy Burgess, Con 1328 Chris Waterman, Lib 1037 John Worthy, Con 978 |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Jun 2, 2020 16:45:30 GMT
Prior to the 1973 reorganisation, Labour had 3 seats on the previous Newbury borough council - presumably that could be the "ward" referred to. NEWBURY BOROUGH, 1972 (according to the Reading Evening Post) EAST (2 seats) *Mike James, Lib 1265 David Beddoes, Lib 1068 Jim Crowe, Con 918 NORTH (3 seats) - 2 Lab gains from Con *Elizabeth Ganf, Con 829 Tony Freke, Lab 811 Bill Browne, Lab 765 Bill Dress, Lab 746 Frank Lewis, Con 722 *Bill Shelton, Con 719 WEST (2 seats) - 1 Lib gain from Con *Percy Burgess, Con 1328 Chris Waterman, Lib 1037 John Worthy, Con 978 Interesting that the female Conservative candidate in North did so much better than the two male ones. |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Jun 2, 2020 16:49:55 GMT
This is a generalisation and I don't have any proof but if we look at election results alone in all sorts of similar seats, middle class left wing voters appear to prefer to live in cities or their immediate suburbs rather than the typical commuter zones. Yes I have made this point on a number of occasions, and it is particularly visible in Birmingham. The well paid middle-class has become self-sorting according to culture and ideology (it’s wider than just political affiliation). Find out where someone lives and you will have a good idea what their views on a range of subjects are likely to be. Alas, Moseley isn't what it used to be... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 16:50:43 GMT
Has it ever been proposed to end the choice of Students as to where they cast their vote? I’m not persuaded myself that the great majority have much interest, knowledge or long term commitment regarding the wider community in which their University sits. I imagine most base their choice wholly on where it would be most influential, which is logical and understandable. I’m not sure how right that is though. probably apply that logic to commuter villages, in my experience |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 16:51:24 GMT
With postal voting now so easy anyway I don’t see a problem. Having a choice gives a students vote potentially more weight than that of others. And it seems to be to the electoral advantage of one party. I think I would feel quite strongly if I lived in a University town where perhaps my Council and MP were elected through the votes of those who had little to do with my community in reality- living temporarily in a sort of independent bubble geographically located nearby but with very little in common with those living working and paying their taxes there. But Universities and their residents make a massive contribution to University towns and cities. They pay my wages, for a start. Don't pay any council tax though, or business rates |
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Post by AdminSTB on Jun 2, 2020 16:52:11 GMT
NEWBURY BOROUGH, 1972 (according to the Reading Evening Post) EAST (2 seats) *Mike James, Lib 1265 David Beddoes, Lib 1068 Jim Crowe, Con 918 NORTH (3 seats) - 2 Lab gains from Con *Elizabeth Ganf, Con 829 Tony Freke, Lab 811 Bill Browne, Lab 765 Bill Dress, Lab 746 Frank Lewis, Con 722 *Bill Shelton, Con 719 WEST (2 seats) - 1 Lib gain from Con *Percy Burgess, Con 1328 Chris Waterman, Lib 1037 John Worthy, Con 978 Interesting that the female Conservative candidate in North did so much better than the two male ones. The asterix indicates she would have been an incumbent, but then again so was her last placed colleague. Personal votes can make a big difference. |
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 2, 2020 17:15:09 GMT
Prior to the 1973 reorganisation, Labour had 3 seats on the previous Newbury borough council - presumably that could be the "ward" referred to. NEWBURY BOROUGH, 1972 (according to the Reading Evening Post) NORTH (3 seats) - 2 Lab gains from Con *Elizabeth Ganf, Con 829 Tony Freke, Lab 811 Bill Browne, Lab 765 Bill Dress, Lab 746 Frank Lewis, Con 722 *Bill Shelton, Con 719 Newbury North. That sounds likely. I was only 14 when I first joined the Labour party so it was a long time ago, and it was certainly a marginal not a safe seat, but I don't think Labour are even remotely in contention for a ward in Newbury now Amusingly - when checking the results for Newbury Central, the Labour candidate in 2019 was one Caroline Anne De Vere ffrench-Blake nee Beauclerk, who is genuine aristocracy! |
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hengo
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Post by hengo on Jun 2, 2020 17:44:43 GMT
It’s a long time since we had a Labour Government .And a very, very long time since we had any Labour government associated , however mildly , with socialism and any prospect of a significant redistribution of income. Since then the Labour Party has become more associated with values such as equality in terms of sex and race and investment in education and health etc. My impression is that people in higher but not top income brackets where you might find Doctors, Headteachers and senior middle managers - may well sympathise with these values and no longer fear that their personal income levels are as likely to be affected as their predecessors did.
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