Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 1, 2020 16:20:46 GMT
With postal voting now so easy anyway I donβt see a problem. Having a choice gives a students vote potentially more weight than that of others. And it seems to be to the electoral advantage of one party. I think I would feel quite strongly if I lived in a University town where perhaps my Council and MP were elected through the votes of those who had little to do with my community in reality- living temporarily in a sort of independent bubble geographically located nearby but with very little in common with those living working and paying their taxes there. But Universities and their residents make a massive contribution to University towns and cities. They pay my wages, for a start. |
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hengo
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Post by hengo on Jun 1, 2020 16:36:46 GMT
But in Canterbury, Iβm sure they encourage the students to vote there? Surely you see the point? The rest of us vote where we live. We may well work say in another constituency where our vote would have a greater impact but we donβt get a choice, and quite rightly not. Why should a student be able to have a greater democratic influence than you or me? I think it would be quite justifiable as well as pragmatic for a Conservative government to change the rules here. That said I have no idea how significant the student vote is - I only gave it any thought when I read in here comments on the significance of election timing and university terms.
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Post by π΄ββ οΈ Neath West π΄ββ οΈ on Jun 1, 2020 16:38:09 GMT
With postal voting now so easy anyway I donβt see a problem. Having a choice gives a students vote potentially more weight than that of others. And it seems to be to the electoral advantage of one party. I think I would feel quite strongly if I lived in a University town where perhaps my Council and MP were elected through the votes of those who had little to do with my community in reality- living temporarily in a sort of independent bubble geographically located nearby but with very little in common with those living working and paying their taxes there. But Universities and their residents make a massive contribution to University towns and cities. They pay my wages, for a start. I'd be surprised if all that many university employees live in university towns. Certainly in the case of England and Wales's best universities (i.e. Oxford and Cardiff), people commute in from all those non-university towns. |
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Post by finsobruce on Jun 1, 2020 16:41:22 GMT
Yes. Exactly. I know that Liverpool's Labour students encouraged students NOT to vote in Liverpool, but I'm sure many did, unless they had already arranged a postal vote Well.....they would wouldnβt they! So you accept that the local Labour students encouraged the use of the choice for political advantage- Liverpool seats being safe anyway? Perfectly sensible from the point of view of party advantage , but rather making my point. So.... you don't think they should vote where they live most of the year, and you don't think they should vote where they live for the rest of the year. Doesn't leave many options does it?  |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 1, 2020 16:41:47 GMT
But Universities and their residents make a massive contribution to University towns and cities. They pay my wages, for a start. I'd be surprised if all that many university employees live in university towns. Certainly in the case of England and Wales's best universities (i.e. Oxford and Cardiff), people commute in from all those non-university towns. Really? You mean Uni staff live in former mining towns in the valleys, or places like Abingdon, rather than the vibrant cities? I really don't think so. Either the city seats are all safe Labour because they are full of lefty academics and public sector workers, or you'll have to find another accusation! |
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Post by π΄ββ οΈ Neath West π΄ββ οΈ on Jun 1, 2020 16:56:24 GMT
I'd be surprised if all that many university employees live in university towns. Certainly in the case of England and Wales's best universities (i.e. Oxford and Cardiff), people commute in from all those non-university towns. Really? You mean Uni staff live in former mining towns in the valleys, or places like Abingdon, rather than the vibrant cities? I really don't think so. Either the city seats are all safe Labour because they are full of lefty academics and public sector workers, or you'll have to find another accusation! It's not so much the academics as the admin staff, the catering staff, the porters, the groundsmen, security, and so on. Universities provide a lot of decent jobs for all sorts of normal people. Edit: and with senior academics, you get a lot of the half-there phenomenon β the outrageous case was Dirk Obbink holding posts at Oxford and Michigan simultaneously, but it's really not that unusual for some professor to actually live hundreds of miles from their university and just turn up there for a couple of days as required. |
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spqr
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Post by spqr on Jun 1, 2020 16:56:38 GMT
But Universities and their residents make a massive contribution to University towns and cities. They pay my wages, for a start. I'd be surprised if all that many university employees live in university towns. Certainly in the case of England and Wales's best universities (i.e. Oxford and Cardiff), people commute in from all those non-university towns. Comment invalidated by the use of "Oxford" and "best universities" in the same sentence. |
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pl
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Post by pl on Jun 1, 2020 16:58:45 GMT
I'd be surprised if all that many university employees live in university towns. Certainly in the case of England and Wales's best universities (i.e. Oxford and Cardiff), people commute in from all those non-university towns. Comment invalidated by the use of "Oxford" and "best universities" in the same sentence. Indeed, Oxford's a complete dump. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 1, 2020 17:06:19 GMT
Really? You mean Uni staff live in former mining towns in the valleys, or places like Abingdon, rather than the vibrant cities? I really don't think so. Either the city seats are all safe Labour because they are full of lefty academics and public sector workers, or you'll have to find another accusation! It's not so much the academics as the admin staff, the catering staff, the porters, the groundsmen, security, and so on. Universities provide a lot of decent jobs for all sorts of normal people. Edit: and with senior academics, you get a lot of the half-there phenomenon β the outrageous case was Dirk Obbink holding posts at Oxford and Michigan simultaneously, but it's really not that unusual for some professor to actually live hundreds of miles from their university and just turn up there for a couple of days as required. The non-academic staff are likely to live near the university, in the larger cities, certainly in my experience. In the smaller towns like Lancaster or Bath, even more so. As for the odd superstar academic, they make up a tiny proportion of the total number of university academics. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Jun 1, 2020 17:06:31 GMT
I'd be surprised if all that many university employees live in university towns. Certainly in the case of England and Wales's best universities (i.e. Oxford and Cardiff), people commute in from all those non-university towns. Comment invalidated by the use of "Oxford" and "best universities" in the same sentence. Cardiff has some distinguished alumni doesn't it Crimson King ? |
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Post by bjornhattan on Jun 1, 2020 17:11:04 GMT
It's not so much the academics as the admin staff, the catering staff, the porters, the groundsmen, security, and so on. Universities provide a lot of decent jobs for all sorts of normal people. Edit: and with senior academics, you get a lot of the half-there phenomenon β the outrageous case was Dirk Obbink holding posts at Oxford and Michigan simultaneously, but it's really not that unusual for some professor to actually live hundreds of miles from their university and just turn up there for a couple of days as required. The non-academic staff are likely to live near the university, in the larger cities, certainly in my experience. In the smaller towns like Lancaster or Bath, even more so. As for the odd superstar academic, they make up a tiny proportion of the total number of university academics. In my experience a lot of Oxford staff live quite some way out nowadays, mainly because of the extremely high cost of housing within the city. A lot of academics do live in places like Abingdon, which are rather pleasant places to live, and within easy reach of the city. Staff who are less well paid tend to live in places like Kidlington, or in the eastern outskirts of the city itself. But the well-heeled streets of North Oxford, which were built for academics in the 19th century, actually have relatively few university workers these days. |
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YL
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Post by YL on Jun 1, 2020 17:12:33 GMT
With postal voting now so easy anyway I donβt see a problem. Having a choice gives a students vote potentially more weight than that of others. And it seems to be to the electoral advantage of one party. I think I would feel quite strongly if I lived in a University town where perhaps my Council and MP were elected through the votes of those who had little to do with my community in reality- living temporarily in a sort of independent bubble geographically located nearby but with very little in common with those living working and paying their taxes there. Well, I do live in a University city (indeed the one which started this discussion) and I think it would be absurd if students weren't allowed to vote here. They live here for over half the year, they're an important part of the city's economy, and actually many of them want to stay after they graduate. |
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Post by finsobruce on Jun 1, 2020 17:26:28 GMT
Really? You mean Uni staff live in former mining towns in the valleys, or places like Abingdon, rather than the vibrant cities? I really don't think so. Either the city seats are all safe Labour because they are full of lefty academics and public sector workers, or you'll have to find another accusation! It's not so much the academics as the admin staff, the catering staff, the porters, the groundsmen, security, and so on. Universities provide a lot of decent jobs for all sorts of normal people. Edit: and with senior academics, you get a lot of the half-there phenomenon β the outrageous case was Dirk Obbink holding posts at Oxford and Michigan simultaneously, but it's really not that unusual for some professor to actually live hundreds of miles from their university and just turn up there for a couple of days as required. sounds like a name from Private Eye... Were it a different time M R James could have written a story in which Mr Obbink got his come uppance from the original owners of the papyri... |
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hengo
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Post by hengo on Jun 1, 2020 17:44:20 GMT
Well.....they would wouldnβt they! So you accept that the local Labour students encouraged the use of the choice for political advantage- Liverpool seats being safe anyway? Perfectly sensible from the point of view of party advantage , but rather making my point. So.... you don't think they should vote where they live most of the year, and you don't think they should vote where they live for the rest of the year. Doesn't leave many options does it? Eh? Iβm suggesting it should be one or the other! Itβs the choice which seems to me to give a students vote a potentially greater value than for others , and that doesnβt seem quite right. And I think the place where they live part of the year, where they were brought up and where in most cases their parents live is probably better, but I donβt think they should be able to choose where their vote has the greater impact. Thatβs all. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2020 20:30:43 GMT
You have to remember though that it's not just general elections that people register for. Even if there is an argument for taking the choice away from students at GEs (although of course the majority will be registered in two seats where it doesn't matter, since the majority of seats are safe for one party or another), the idea of disallowing double registration for local elections is ludicrous.
Stroud District is "home", as in where I live, where I go back to at varying times for whatever reason, and possibly where I will go back to after I finish my degree, but for most of the year I am reliant on public services in and around Reading, and run by Reading Borough Council. Removing the ability to at least register for both of those local elections would be unfair.
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hengo
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Post by hengo on Jun 1, 2020 21:11:12 GMT
The logic of that is that you should have two votes- is that what you think?
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Post by IceAgeComing on Jun 1, 2020 21:15:36 GMT
And then you have to consider about how you'd define what counts as a students "primary" residence. A lot of students do go back home during the summer but some don't: my best friend's fiancΓ© moved out at 18 to move from Aberdeenshire to Stirling for uni and never went back full time (worked part time during term time, full time in summer holidays) and any idea that she'd have to vote in Aberdeenshire because she's a student would be ridiculous. The most logical definition would surely be that someone should vote in the place that they spend the most time in which would therefore be their term time address. Frankly its not really a major issue anyway unless there's a lot of double voting going on which, well, doesn't seem to be the case - I think people would have noticed if a non-negligible number of people were doing that. I imagine that others do similar things (in the European elections I voted by post in Scotland rather than in person in London because I had issues with registering to vote in London because I was lodging with someone so didn't have proof of address and it was just easier to get a postal vote and do it that way; in the big scheme of things it doesn't really matter where my vote is counted as long as it is counted: in my defence I was working in a short term contract and ended up moving back soon afterwards and because of that everything official still went there so I'd still say that was 'home' in a more meaningful sense than whatever short term flat I had in London was) and in my eyes provided that you aren't seeing significant amounts of electoral fraud through things like double voting and non-residents being registered to swing marginal seats then things are fine as they are now. The logic of that is that you should have two votes- is that what you think? In Local Elections; you legally can vote in more than one provided that you are a resident in both places. Which is entirely reasonable: you pay council tax in both (or have an exemption in both); you use local services in both most likely and therefore should have a right to change how those services are managed if its appropriate. Changing this would require someone to define what a "primary residence" is and if its the person then they'll generally go wherever is easiest (or if they are sophisticated: wherever their vote is more impactful); and if its the local councils then its a significant amount of work to do (and money to spend) to solve what most people do not see as a major issue plus again its incredibly hard to define that. This is an even more niche thing as well because, well, how many people do you think: a. know that they have the right to vote in local elections in two different local authorities and b. exercise that right? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2020 21:18:03 GMT
The logic of that is that you should have two votes- is that what you think? For general elections, no. For local elections, I'm pretty sure I do as long as the two addresses are in two different authorities, which seems fairly reasonable. |
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Jun 1, 2020 22:52:41 GMT
It's not so much the academics as the admin staff, the catering staff, the porters, the groundsmen, security, and so on. Universities provide a lot of decent jobs for all sorts of normal people. Edit: and with senior academics, you get a lot of the half-there phenomenon β the outrageous case was Dirk Obbink holding posts at Oxford and Michigan simultaneously, but it's really not that unusual for some professor to actually live hundreds of miles from their university and just turn up there for a couple of days as required. The non-academic staff are likely to live near the university, in the larger cities, certainly in my experience. In the smaller towns like Lancaster or Bath, even more so. One of my lecturers at Bath only teaches a few hours per week. Before lockdown, she said she had been commuting from "Bradford" which I presumed meant Bradford-on-Avon. It turns out it was in fact the city in West Yorkshire! |
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spqr
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Post by spqr on Jun 1, 2020 22:57:40 GMT
The non-academic staff are likely to live near the university, in the larger cities, certainly in my experience. In the smaller towns like Lancaster or Bath, even more so. One of my lecturers at Bath only teaches a few hours per week. Before lockdown, she said she had been commuting from "Bradford" which I presumed meant Bradford-on-Avon. It turns out it was in fact the city in West Yorkshire! I knew a female lecturer who had a weekly schedule of teaching at Edinburgh, Durham and Bristol Universities, all on temporary contracts. She lived in the South West, I think, and just travelled from one place to the next before returning home again. |
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