Cities of London and Westminster

[gerrardwinstanley]

Nov 24, 2021 11:37:11 GMT batman said:

"once a base for the sex industry and considered rather “grubby”, the area has, from the 1980s, been gentrified. Nonetheless, Old Compton Street is still home to the city’s gay community, " - slightly unfortunately put, as it implies there's something grubby about being gay. Although entirely heterosexual myself, I would strongly reject such an attitude.

I use scare quotes around "grubby": one person's grubby is another person's luxury.

Too, by "grubby" I was referring to the general conditions of Soho pre-1980s, by which time it had become a rather run down and grungy area. Generally, I think people did perceive (and still do, to some extent) Soho as "seedy" and "sexy" - I, for one, celebrate these qualities, however. I am also of the opinion that gentrification has, in fact, been squeezing the life out of Soho, and it's this very gentrification that is a threat to the continuation of Soho as a space for the gay/queer community. 

As a queer person who frequents Soho (rather a lot), I didn't mean to apply that there is something grubby about being gay, although I can see how it might be read that way. 



 

[batman]

Nov 24, 2021 12:10:45 GMT gerrardwinstanley said:

Nov 24, 2021 11:37:11 GMT batman said:

"once a base for the sex industry and considered rather “grubby”, the area has, from the 1980s, been gentrified. Nonetheless, Old Compton Street is still home to the city’s gay community, " - slightly unfortunately put, as it implies there's something grubby about being gay. Although entirely heterosexual myself, I would strongly reject such an attitude.

I use scare quotes around "grubby": one person's grubby is another person's luxury.

Too, by "grubby" I was referring to the general conditions of Soho pre-1980s, by which time it had become a rather run down and grungy area. Generally, I think people did perceive (and still do, to some extent) Soho as "seedy" and "sexy" - I, for one, celebrate these qualities, however. I am also of the opinion that gentrification has, in fact, been squeezing the life out of Soho, and it's this very gentrification that is a threat to the continuation of Soho as a space for the gay/queer community. 

As a queer person who frequents Soho (rather a lot), I didn't mean to apply that there is something grubby about being gay, although I can see how it might be read that way. 



 

I don't often to go to Soho, but I did campaign for Labour there in the last local elections, as one of the candidates is an acquaintance of mine. I had none other than Ben Bradshaw MP in my canvass team and very good he was. My friend didn't win, but one of the Labour candidates did and became, as far as I know, the first-ever Labour councillor to represent the West End itself.

[Pete Whitehead]

Nov 24, 2021 16:57:18 GMT batman said:

Nov 24, 2021 12:10:45 GMT gerrardwinstanley said:

I use scare quotes around "grubby": one person's grubby is another person's luxury.

Too, by "grubby" I was referring to the general conditions of Soho pre-1980s, by which time it had become a rather run down and grungy area. Generally, I think people did perceive (and still do, to some extent) Soho as "seedy" and "sexy" - I, for one, celebrate these qualities, however. I am also of the opinion that gentrification has, in fact, been squeezing the life out of Soho, and it's this very gentrification that is a threat to the continuation of Soho as a space for the gay/queer community. 

As a queer person who frequents Soho (rather a lot), I didn't mean to apply that there is something grubby about being gay, although I can see how it might be read that way. 



 

I don't often to go to Soho, but I did campaign for Labour there in the last local elections, as one of the candidates is an acquaintance of mine. I had none other than Ben Bradshaw MP in my canvass team and very good he was. My friend didn't win, but one of the Labour candidates did and became, as far as I know, the first-ever Labour councillor to represent the West End itself.

For the unified West End yes, although there was a Soho ward which Labour won in 1964. Also a Great Marlborough ward which they won in 1945 and would have presumably covered part of the West End.
Certainly the first time Mayfair has had a Labour councillor though!

[batman]

I wasn't aware Labour had won in Soho. They should have told me when I canvassed Some of the canvassers were vastly experienced campaigners, including Paul Dimoldenberg.

[batman]

Incidentally, more than 20 years ago I went to the funeral of my great-aunt Sarah, who had been born in Poland and was the last survivor in my family to have been born there - she lived to the age of 101. Sarah had been very interested in Labour politics almost from her arrival in this country and I got talking to a slightly less elderly mourner; she told me that she had been the first-ever Labour councillor elected to the pre-1965 Westminster council. Maybe I should check historic Westminster election results - anyone have a good link handy?

[Pete Whitehead]

Nov 24, 2021 18:32:03 GMT batman said:

Incidentally, more than 20 years ago I went to the funeral of my great-aunt Sarah, who had been born in Poland and was the last survivor in my family to have been born there - she lived to the age of 101. Sarah had been very interested in Labour politics almost from her arrival in this country and I got talking to a slightly less elderly mourner; she told me that she had been the first-ever Labour councillor elected to the pre-1965 Westminster council. Maybe I should check historic Westminster election results - anyone have a good link handy?

I don't have anything in digital format - just Alan Willis books. What was their name? I'm scanning through the results as we speak but I think that 1945 result I mentioned may have been the first (there were also Communists elected in Covent Garden)

[batman]

it's too long ago for me to remember, unfortunately. She was Jewish like Auntie Sarah & me & may well have had a Jewish-sounding name. I'm sure she will have passed away by now.

[Pete Whitehead]

Nov 24, 2021 20:24:20 GMT batman said:

it's too long ago for me to remember, unfortunately. She was Jewish like Auntie Sarah & me & may well have had a Jewish-sounding name. I'm sure she will have passed away by now.

A Z. Blau topped the poll in Great Marlborough in 1945 - sounds like it could be Jewish. The other Labour councillor elected there was H. Caro and there was a B.Driscoll elected in St John (awful ward name - I'm guessing it may be in the Millbank area based on St John's in Smith Square)

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Zena Blau was certainly still around a few years ago. Also Ettie Gontarsky, who was one of the Communist councillors in 1945-49, was still living in her own flat in Soho in the early 21st century.

Edit: Read this on Ettie Gontarsky stateofsoho.wordpress.com/2016/05/19/soho-born-and-bred-in-honour-of-ettie-gontarsky/

[batman]

I'm almost certain that it was Zena Blau. It's not a common surname, but an old family friend, Edith, was a Holocaust survivor along with her mother, whom I always knew as Mrs Blau. They escaped from a march outside the concentration camp where they were imprisoned when a guard had his back turned and managed to escape to Denmark, thence to England. She married a British Jewish man and became Edith Brandon. They both passed away in recent years in their 90s. Thanks Pete & David for the information. I remember that Zena Blau was a very nice lady when I met her. I can't remember how she knew my auntie Sarah.

[finsobruce]

Nov 24, 2021 20:41:07 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

Nov 24, 2021 20:24:20 GMT batman said:

it's too long ago for me to remember, unfortunately. She was Jewish like Auntie Sarah & me & may well have had a Jewish-sounding name. I'm sure she will have passed away by now.

A Z. Blau topped the poll in Great Marlborough in 1945 - sounds like it could be Jewish. The other Labour councillor elected there was H. Caro and there was a B.Driscoll elected in St John (awful ward name - I'm guessing it may be in the Millbank area based on St John's in Smith Square)

This was Miss Zena Blau . The Westminster and Pimlico News for 27th June 1947 had a profile of her, which revealed that at 26, she was the youngest Westminster Labour councillor. Born in the area she attended the Grey Coat hospital on a junior scholarship, and then an LCC travelling scholarship which enabled her to visit Switzerland. A secretary , her hobbies included dancing, swimming, knitting and attending the Proms concerts.

She resigned in June 1948 although the report gave her married name as Bullmore rather than Brandon.

 

[batman]

it's possible that she is still alive, in that case, though she would now be 100. I'm sure it's the same lady, it was a lady of about 80 that I met at my auntie's funeral.

[finsobruce]

Nov 24, 2021 20:41:07 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

Nov 24, 2021 20:24:20 GMT batman said:

it's too long ago for me to remember, unfortunately. She was Jewish like Auntie Sarah & me & may well have had a Jewish-sounding name. I'm sure she will have passed away by now.

A Z. Blau topped the poll in Great Marlborough in 1945 - sounds like it could be Jewish. The other Labour councillor elected there was H. Caro and there was a B.Driscoll elected in St John (awful ward name - I'm guessing it may be in the Millbank area based on St John's in Smith Square)

I've managed to track down something about H Caro too. When he resigned in early 1949, one of the Communist councillors, a certain Mr Carritt, made a speech saying it was a good thing he'd resigned as no-one could represent the working classes while living in Park Lane "In the same building as Stanley". This resignation left the Communists as the largest opposition group (three).

 Horace Isaac Caro's resignation turned out to be for a rather 'exciting' reason. He had been charged with Grievous Bodily Harm for whipping ( a damn good thrashing) an RAF officer Kenneth Coates, who had made his daughter pregnant. His daughter Jacqueline was an actress with a stage name of Jackie Henderson. Coates called on Caro, who then got his chauffer to drive them to Westwell in Kent, where the assault was committed. Under cross examination from Mr Flowers KC , Coates agreed that Caro's offer to fight him was a fair one, but he had only thanked him for the thrashing "out of sarcasm"

In 1934 Caro had publicly reverted to his original family name having been known for some time as Horace Henderson-Isaacs. He had been born in Sunderland c1898 and died in 1977.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

The "certain Mr Carritt" was formally Dr Gabriel Carritt but known to all as Billy Carritt. Former Labour group deputy leader Madge Cavalla, who was my fellow candidate in Churchill ward in 1998, will sing you his campaign song if you ask her.

[yellowperil]

Nov 28, 2021 20:07:05 GMT finsobruce said:

Nov 24, 2021 20:41:07 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

A Z. Blau topped the poll in Great Marlborough in 1945 - sounds like it could be Jewish. The other Labour councillor elected there was H. Caro and there was a B.Driscoll elected in St John (awful ward name - I'm guessing it may be in the Millbank area based on St John's in Smith Square)

I've managed to track down something about H Caro too. When he resigned in early 1949, one of the Communist councillors, a certain Mr Carritt, made a speech saying it was a good thing he'd resigned as no-one could represent the working classes while living in Park Lane "In the same building as Stanley". This resignation left the Communists as the largest opposition group (three).

 Horace Isaac Caro's resignation turned out to be for a rather 'exciting' reason. He had been charged with Grievous Bodily Harm for whipping ( a damn good thrashing) an RAF officer Kenneth Coates, who had made his daughter pregnant. His daughter Jacqueline was an actress with a stage name of Jackie Henderson. Coates called on Caro, who then got his chauffer to drive them to Westwell in Kent, where the assault was committed. Under cross examination from Mr Flowers KC , Coates agreed that Caro's offer to fight him was a fair one, but he had only thanked him for the thrashing "out of sarcasm"

In 1934 Caro had publicly reverted to his original family name having been known for some time as Horace Henderson-Isaacs. He had been born in Sunderland c1898 and died in 1977.

Now what I need to know is  why Westwell, of all places?

[Davıd Boothroyd]

On the ward names, St John and St Margaret were the two parishes of the original Westminster - the 'Thorney Island' area between two rivulets of the Tyburn. St Margaret's parish church is the one next to Westminster Abbey. St John's Smith Square was the parish church but is now deconsecrated. Several more ecclesiastical parishes were added by subdivision in the 19th century but the wards stayed the same. The detailed boundaries are shown on some of the National Library of Scotland's historic high scale maps.

St John was a target seat for Labour as it included a lot of working-class housing (including several Peabody Estates, the LCC's Millbank Estate, and the Page Street dwellings). But most of the electorate were much higher class, living in Georgian terraces or some mansion blocks. So Labour wins were very rare. The same wards lasted from 1900 to 1959.

[finsobruce]

Nov 28, 2021 22:23:43 GMT yellowperil said:

Nov 28, 2021 20:07:05 GMT finsobruce said:

I've managed to track down something about H Caro too. When he resigned in early 1949, one of the Communist councillors, a certain Mr Carritt, made a speech saying it was a good thing he'd resigned as no-one could represent the working classes while living in Park Lane "In the same building as Stanley". This resignation left the Communists as the largest opposition group (three).

 Horace Isaac Caro's resignation turned out to be for a rather 'exciting' reason. He had been charged with Grievous Bodily Harm for whipping ( a damn good thrashing) an RAF officer Kenneth Coates, who had made his daughter pregnant. His daughter Jacqueline was an actress with a stage name of Jackie Henderson. Coates called on Caro, who then got his chauffer to drive them to Westwell in Kent, where the assault was committed. Under cross examination from Mr Flowers KC , Coates agreed that Caro's offer to fight him was a fair one, but he had only thanked him for the thrashing "out of sarcasm"

In 1934 Caro had publicly reverted to his original family name having been known for some time as Horace Henderson-Isaacs. He had been born in Sunderland c1898 and died in 1977.

Now what I need to know is  why Westwell, of all places?

No idea, presumably Caro had some connection with the place.I've had a further look but nothing leaps out. He had a number of businesses, and had been on business abroad just before the incident occured. 

[finsobruce]

Nov 28, 2021 22:37:59 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

On the ward names, St John and St Margaret were the two parishes of the original Westminster - the 'Thorney Island' area between two rivulets of the Tyburn. St Margaret's parish church is the one next to Westminster Abbey. St John's Smith Square was the parish church but is now deconsecrated. Several more ecclesiastical parishes were added by subdivision in the 19th century but the wards stayed the same. The detailed boundaries are shown on some of the National Library of Scotland's historic high scale maps.

St John was a target seat for Labour as it included a lot of working-class housing (including several Peabody Estates, the LCC's Millbank Estate, and the Page Street dwellings). But most of the electorate were much higher class, living in Georgian terraces or some mansion blocks. So Labour wins were very rare. The same wards lasted from 1900 to 1959.

I see there's a detatched part of the Strand.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Nov 28, 2021 22:50:20 GMT finsobruce said:

I see there's a detatched part of the Strand.

Indeed. It is a single building, 40 Wellington Street, which was bought as the parsonage house of St Mary le Strand although locally situate in St Paul's Covent Garden.

[yellowperil]

Nov 28, 2021 22:49:33 GMT finsobruce said:

Nov 28, 2021 22:23:43 GMT yellowperil said:

Now what I need to know is  why Westwell, of all places?

No idea, presumably Caro had some connection with the place.I've had a further look but nothing leaps out. He had a number of businesses, and had been on business abroad just before the incident occured. 

Fascinating. It's a very odd story that the two of them were driven by Caro's chauffeur to a remote and quite tiny downland village in order to administer the thrashing there. The only way I could make sense of it would be if that was where the daughter had retreated to? Westwell today is partly modified in its character because Ashford is starting to encroach, but it is still deeply rural and a pretty feudal sort of place.( although not as much as nextdoor Eastwell). I have spent many happy days campaigning there on various people's behalf, including twice for myself when I fought the Ashford Rural West division for KCC, and two succesful borough ward campaigns when Westwell  was the very Tory adjunct within  Hothfield ward- we had to win Hothfield big to offset the Westwell effect.