ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,104
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Post by ilerda on Aug 30, 2024 9:14:27 GMT
When it comes to local government I think getting too hung up on historic county boundaries is a bad thing. They are often a poor reflection of current socio-economic geography and that lends itself to less efficient local administration.
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Post by johnloony on Aug 30, 2024 9:19:44 GMT
When it comes to local government I think getting too hung up on historic county boundaries is a bad thing. They are often a poor reflection of current socio-economic geography and that lends itself to less efficient local administration. Presumably that’s why the traditional county boundaries were correctively re-educated in the 1970s in the first place. |
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,104
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Post by ilerda on Aug 30, 2024 9:27:16 GMT
When it comes to local government I think getting too hung up on historic county boundaries is a bad thing. They are often a poor reflection of current socio-economic geography and that lends itself to less efficient local administration. Presumably that’s why the traditional county boundaries were correctively re-educated in the 1970s in the first place. I’d have gone much further back then tbh. And maintained a more regular process of tweaks and reevaluations. I’m a strong supporter of traditional counties and their historic boundaries. I just don’t think they’re appropriate as local government units anymore. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,808 
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Post by J.G.Harston on Aug 30, 2024 11:00:49 GMT
When it comes to local government I think getting too hung up on historic county boundaries is a bad thing. They are often a poor reflection of current socio-economic geography and that lends itself to less efficient local administration. Digging out the maps, an issue is the Lake District is split up. The historic counties splits the Lakes in three, the 1974 districts split them in four, the new unitaries splits them in two. Is that a problem? Is the Lake District a core area, or a useful dividing area? One useful thing the 1974 Cumbria did was unify the whole area in one county-level structure. There is a clear distinction of Carlisle and Furniss being their own places. Workington/Whitehaven are coastal, part of the A596 corridor, but the rest of the old Allerdale/Copeland district is Western Lakes. Penrith from Cumberland was put with a load of countryside from Westmorland to become the core of Eden. But is Inglewood Forest to the north of Penrith the hinterland of Carlisle or of Penrith? Penrith was a natural central administrative point for Eden, just as Kendal for South Lakeland, in a continuation of administering Westmoreland. The flaw with modern reorganisations is the government insisting on pure mergers of existing authorities. At least the 1974 reforms went down to parish level for building blocks. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,808
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Post by J.G.Harston on Aug 30, 2024 11:06:14 GMT
When it comes to local government I think getting too hung up on historic county boundaries is a bad thing. They are often a poor reflection of current socio-economic geography and that lends itself to less efficient local administration. Presumably that’s why the traditional county boundaries were correctively re-educated in the 1970s in the first place. Nothing happened to traditional county boundaries in the 1970s. They simply ceased to be used for administration. |
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,104
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Post by ilerda on Aug 30, 2024 11:22:40 GMT
When it comes to local government I think getting too hung up on historic county boundaries is a bad thing. They are often a poor reflection of current socio-economic geography and that lends itself to less efficient local administration. Digging out the maps, an issue is the Lake District is split up. The historic counties splits the Lakes in three, the 1974 districts split them in four, the new unitaries splits them in two. Is that a problem? Is the Lake District a core area, or a useful dividing area? One useful thing the 1974 Cumbria did was unify the whole area in one county-level structure. There is a clear distinction of Carlisle and Furniss being their own places. Workington/Whitehaven are coastal, part of the A596 corridor, but the rest of the old Allerdale/Copeland district is Western Lakes. Penrith from Cumberland was put with a load of countryside from Westmorland to become the core of Eden. But is Inglewood Forest to the north of Penrith the hinterland of Carlisle or of Penrith? Penrith was a natural central administrative point for Eden, just as Kendal for South Lakeland, in a continuation of administering Westmoreland. The flaw with modern reorganisations is the government insisting on pure mergers of existing authorities. At least the 1974 reforms went down to parish level for building blocks. I agree wholeheartedly that using the existing flawed districts as the only allowable building blocks for new authorities just perpetuates the flaws rather than fixing them. A move to unitaries should be the perfect opportunity to start from scratch, but the politicians are too scared and the LGBCE doesn’t have the impetus to do that. with regards to the Lake District being split I don’t necessarily see that as a problem. The National Park Authority probably has the powers it needs to override the LAs where necessary, and given that they’ve always been split they’re no doubt experts at cross-border collaboration. I also think geographical features like mountains are more of a barrier between communities than they are a unifier (ditto large rivers and estuaries). In my view as part of the current unitarisation trend we’ve moved too far in the wrong direction when it comes to size. A unitary authority that is the same size as a whole or most of a county is just too large to have nothing underneath it. And parishes are too small to deal with anything meaningful. Ideally I’d prefer “districts” that are equivalent to a small county or half a larger one, with municipalities underneath that are roughly equivalent in size to the pre-74 rural and urban districts (although with smaller ones merged with neighbouring rural or urban districts to make them sustainable). The district could deal with the larger services like education, highways, waste management, housing, social services etc. and the municipalities could provide local services such as leisure, parks, libraries, cemeteries, street cleaning etc. Then I’d group districts into regions roughly equivalent to a combined authority for the strategic stuff like economic development, skills, public transport etc. |
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,044
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Post by Sibboleth on Aug 30, 2024 13:00:02 GMT
When it comes to local government I think getting too hung up on historic county boundaries is a bad thing. They are often a poor reflection of current socio-economic geography and that lends itself to less efficient local administration. I always think the trick should be to make them the official Ceremonial Counties - with the boundaries that they had in, say, 1900 - and detach those in all respects from administrative geography. |
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cibwr
Plaid Cymru
Posts: 3,598
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Post by cibwr on Aug 30, 2024 16:38:31 GMT
When it comes to local government I think getting too hung up on historic county boundaries is a bad thing. They are often a poor reflection of current socio-economic geography and that lends itself to less efficient local administration. I always think the trick should be to make them the official Ceremonial Counties - with the boundaries that they had in, say, 1900 - and detach those in all respects from administrative geography. And remember the "historic" counties had their boundaries altered several times - indeed some were merged/split etc. |
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ilerda
Conservative
Posts: 1,104
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Post by ilerda on Aug 30, 2024 17:26:14 GMT
It’s a rare fellow who maintains that the historic county boundaries in the Cotswolds should revert to those before the Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1844, for example.
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
Posts: 6,142
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Post by Foggy on Aug 30, 2024 22:01:57 GMT
It’s a rare fellow who maintains that the historic county boundaries in the Cotswolds should revert to those before the Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1844, for example. I may be rare, but even I have to draw the line somewhere (pun intended). So perhaps I'm only medium rare? |
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YL
Non-Aligned
Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
Posts: 4,915
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Post by YL on Aug 31, 2024 7:30:18 GMT
It’s a rare fellow who maintains that the historic county boundaries in the Cotswolds should revert to those before the Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1844, for example. Many of the detached parts in that area survived long after 1844. The Four Shire Stone didn’t become a three shire stone until the 1930s. |
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Post by No Offence Alan on Aug 31, 2024 9:49:39 GMT
It’s a rare fellow who maintains that the historic county boundaries in the Cotswolds should revert to those before the Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1844, for example. Many of the detached parts in that area survived long after 1844. The Four Shire Stone didn’t become a three shire stone until the 1930s. Seven of my great-grandparents were born in Worcestershire. But we later annexed Kemerton from Gloucestershire, where the 8th one had been born. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,808
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Post by J.G.Harston on Aug 31, 2024 9:53:33 GMT
In my view as part of the current unitarisation trend we’ve moved too far in the wrong direction when it comes to size. A unitary authority that is the same size as a whole or most of a county is just too large to have nothing underneath it. And parishes are too small to deal with anything meaningful. Ideally I’d prefer “districts” that are equivalent to a small county or half a larger one, with municipalities underneath that are roughly equivalent in size to the pre-74 rural and urban districts (although with smaller ones merged with neighbouring rural or urban districts to make them sustainable). The district could deal with the larger services like education, highways, waste management, housing, social services etc. and the municipalities could provide local services such as leisure, parks, libraries, cemeteries, street cleaning etc. Then I’d group districts into regions roughly equivalent to a combined authority for the strategic stuff like economic development, skills, public transport etc. I feel that the county boroughs with the sort of loose-ish boundaries like Sheffield were about the right size for their function as unitary authories. But that's a solution for urban areas. It's not a model that works for rual areas, and simply annexing huge tracts of rural countryside into a central county borough isn't a solution. Having Cleckhuddersfax extending all the way to Saddleworth Moor doesn't work. It's as though - wow! - urban and rural areas are different and need different approaches! |
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
Posts: 6,142
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Post by Foggy on Aug 31, 2024 18:19:43 GMT
It’s a rare fellow who maintains that the historic county boundaries in the Cotswolds should revert to those before the Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1844, for example. Many of the detached parts in that area survived long after 1844. The Four Shire Stone didn’t become a three shire stone until the 1930s. Nah, I'm fairly certain Stone's always been entirely within Staffordshire.  |
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Post by loderingo on Sept 15, 2024 11:22:47 GMT
A consultation has been launched for Wirral. It will continue to have 66 councillors and 3 member wards. The main wards which are underrepresented are Bromborough and Birkenhead and Tranmere, which are both forecast to see new housing development. A consultation has been launched for NE Lincs. It will continue to have 42 councillors and 3 member wards. Humberston and Wolds wards are underrepresented, while East Marsh and Freshney are overrepresented A consultation has been launched for Portsmouth. It will continue to have 42 councillors and 3 member wards. The City Centre Charles Dickens ward is massively underrepresented but there is an opportunity for wider changes as Portsmouth hasn't been reviewed since 2001 (particularly the messy split of the North End area) A consultation has been launched for Westmorland and Furness. This will be the first review since the new authority was created and will require a complete redraw. The council will have 65 councillors and can be a mix of 1,2 and 3 member wards. Draft boundaries have been published for NW Leics: www.lgbce.org.uk/news/press-release/have-your-say-new-political-map-north-west-leicestershire-district-council-0 |
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YL
Non-Aligned
Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
Posts: 4,915
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Post by YL on Sept 15, 2024 16:39:25 GMT
A consultation has been launched for Wirral. It will continue to have 66 councillors and 3 member wards. The main wards which are underrepresented are Bromborough and Birkenhead and Tranmere, which are both forecast to see new housing development. Given that Wirral has moved to all-up elections, will it necessarily retain 3 member wards? |
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Post by greenhert on Sept 15, 2024 17:34:45 GMT
A consultation has been launched for Wirral. It will continue to have 66 councillors and 3 member wards. The main wards which are underrepresented are Bromborough and Birkenhead and Tranmere, which are both forecast to see new housing development. A consultation has been launched for NE Lincs. It will continue to have 42 councillors and 3 member wards. Humberston and Wolds wards are underrepresented, while East Marsh and Freshney are overrepresented A consultation has been launched for Portsmouth. It will continue to have 42 councillors and 3 member wards. The City Centre Charles Dickens ward is massively underrepresented but there is an opportunity for wider changes as Portsmouth hasn't been reviewed since 2001 (particularly the messy split of the North End area) A consultation has been launched for Westmorland and Furness. This will be the first review since the new authority was created and will require a complete redraw. The council will have 65 councillors and can be a mix of 1,2 and 3 member wards. Draft boundaries have been published for NW Leics: www.lgbce.org.uk/news/press-release/have-your-say-new-political-map-north-west-leicestershire-district-council-0Will NE Lincolnshire and Portsmouth be sticking with by-thirds elections? Will all Wirral wards be 3-member wards, especially since Wirral now holds full council elections every 4 years? |
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Post by andrewteale on Sept 15, 2024 17:47:35 GMT
A consultation has been launched for NE Lincs. It will continue to have 42 councillors and 3 member wards. Humberston and Wolds wards are underrepresented, while East Marsh and Freshney are overrepresented North East Lincolnshire currently has three two-member wards (Waltham, West Marsh and Wolds) so this proposal is a bit of a change. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,039
Member is Online
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Post by Khunanup on Sept 15, 2024 19:23:08 GMT
A consultation has been launched for Wirral. It will continue to have 66 councillors and 3 member wards. The main wards which are underrepresented are Bromborough and Birkenhead and Tranmere, which are both forecast to see new housing development. A consultation has been launched for NE Lincs. It will continue to have 42 councillors and 3 member wards. Humberston and Wolds wards are underrepresented, while East Marsh and Freshney are overrepresented A consultation has been launched for Portsmouth. It will continue to have 42 councillors and 3 member wards. The City Centre Charles Dickens ward is massively underrepresented but there is an opportunity for wider changes as Portsmouth hasn't been reviewed since 2001 (particularly the messy split of the North End area) A consultation has been launched for Westmorland and Furness. This will be the first review since the new authority was created and will require a complete redraw. The council will have 65 councillors and can be a mix of 1,2 and 3 member wards. Draft boundaries have been published for NW Leics: www.lgbce.org.uk/news/press-release/have-your-say-new-political-map-north-west-leicestershire-district-council-0Will NE Lincolnshire and Portsmouth be sticking with by-thirds elections? Will all Wirral wards be 3-member wards, especially since Wirral now holds full council elections every 4 years? Pompey is sticking with thirds. |
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Post by listener on Oct 13, 2024 21:17:16 GMT
To answer YL above, it is not necessary for Wirral to have just 3 member wards. There are a mixture of wards in Liverpool, St. Helens, Doncaster, Rotherham and Birmingham.
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