J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jul 21, 2021 20:26:00 GMT
Bad idea in North Yorkshire's case-it is already the largest county in the United Kingdom and its districts are large enough as they are; transport links east-west in North Yorkshire are pretty poor. York UA remains unaffected? Yep. The two options were: North Yorkshire + York, or West North Yorkshire + East North Yorkshire link
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 20:42:51 GMT
York UA remains unaffected? Yep. The two options were: North Yorkshire + York, or West North Yorkshire + East North Yorkshire link"West North" and "East North", that's the way to do it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 20:57:22 GMT
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European Lefty
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Post by European Lefty on Jul 21, 2021 21:05:33 GMT
It was probably inevitable as soon as it was suggested, but turning those counties Into unitaries (especially whole-county ones) is a terrible idea
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Post by bjornhattan on Jul 21, 2021 21:39:46 GMT
York UA remains unaffected? Yep. The two options were: North Yorkshire + York, or West North Yorkshire + East North Yorkshire linkSelby is almost an exclave - is there seriously no prospect of the district being treated separately and not just being thrown into this vast county-wide UA? I realise giving it to York (which is probably the only place the district could go) would be somewhat controversial. However, the towns of Selby and Tadcaster do have strong ties to York, and Selby constituency historically took in parts of York city including the university. The York unitary also has previously expanded by annexing neighbouring areas of North Yorkshire. So even though a transfer would be a bit more disruptive, it's somewhat precedented and certainly seems far more sensible than one unitary stretching from Drax to Staithes and Hawes.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jul 21, 2021 21:44:00 GMT
As one who grew up there I can tell you North Yorkshire is an enormous county. I can remember how remote the county council HQ at Northallerton was from Scarborough, and Northallerton is less than half way across the county. The idea that there would be the same principal authority for the whole area from Low Bentham to Hunmanby is bonkers.
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ilerda
Conservative
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Post by ilerda on Jul 21, 2021 21:57:32 GMT
Part of the problem was that the two-unitary proposal out forward by the districts was also a bit bonks, especially the proposed East North Yorkshire stretching from Selby to Whitby.
The most sensible option would be for three or four unitaries, most likely joining Selby with York. It would have meant some smaller UAs, but certainly still bigger than a good number of pre-existing ones like Slough, Hartlepool and Darlington.
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peterl
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Monarchic Technocratic Localist
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Post by peterl on Jul 21, 2021 22:24:10 GMT
It was probably inevitable as soon as it was suggested, but turning those counties Into unitaries (especially whole-hearted county ones) is a terrible idea Other than tiny places like Rutland or the Isle of Wight, whole county unitaries are always a bad idea, far too unwieldy and remote. Make no mistake about it, this is another step backwards for local democracy.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
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Post by J.G.Harston on Jul 21, 2021 23:13:31 GMT
Yep. The two options were: North Yorkshire + York, or West North Yorkshire + East North Yorkshire linkSelby is almost an exclave - is there seriously no prospect of the district being treated separately and not just being thrown into this vast county-wide UA? I realise giving it to York (which is probably the only place the district could go) would be somewhat controversial. However, the towns of Selby and Tadcaster do have strong ties to York, and Selby constituency historically took in parts of York city including the university. The York unitary also has previously expanded by annexing neighbouring areas of North Yorkshire. So even though a transfer would be a bit more disruptive, it's somewhat precedented and certainly seems far more sensible than one unitary stretching from Drax to Staithes and Hawes. It makes no sense to group Selby and York into a single council - that's half the flaw with the East/West option. In my submission I made the point that I'd made in the previous two reviews, that most of Selby really should go into East Yorkshire (eg link). But this time around the rules of the game were that the existing NorthYorks+York boundary was sacrosanct.
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Post by lancastrian on Jul 22, 2021 0:00:22 GMT
Very disappointed about the Morecambe Bay bid being rejected-it would have worked very well for Lancaster and it would have ensured a sensible Cumberland UA./quote] I suspect the knock on effects for Lancashire played a hand here. Eh, not sure they would. Maybe it would add pressure for unitaries in Lancashire, but if that is the inevitable outcome anyway Lancaster fits better and helps with population in Cumbria - the two Cumbria authorities proposed are both smaller than the Blackpool+Fylde+Wyre combination Lancaster will end up in now.
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 22, 2021 8:04:52 GMT
Selby is almost an exclave - is there seriously no prospect of the district being treated separately and not just being thrown into this vast county-wide UA? I realise giving it to York (which is probably the only place the district could go) would be somewhat controversial. However, the towns of Selby and Tadcaster do have strong ties to York, and Selby constituency historically took in parts of York city including the university. The York unitary also has previously expanded by annexing neighbouring areas of North Yorkshire. So even though a transfer would be a bit more disruptive, it's somewhat precedented and certainly seems far more sensible than one unitary stretching from Drax to Staithes and Hawes. It makes no sense to group Selby and York into a single council - that's half the flaw with the East/West option. In my submission I made the point that I'd made in the previous two reviews, that most of Selby really should go into East Yorkshire (eg link). But this time around the rules of the game were that the existing NorthYorks+York boundary was sacrosanct. Selby is quite as good a fit to York as it is to East Yorkshire, possibly even better.
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Post by greenhert on Jul 22, 2021 9:06:11 GMT
It makes no sense to group Selby and York into a single council - that's half the flaw with the East/West option. In my submission I made the point that I'd made in the previous two reviews, that most of Selby really should go into East Yorkshire (eg link). But this time around the rules of the game were that the existing NorthYorks+York boundary was sacrosanct. Selby is quite as good a fit to York as it is to East Yorkshire, possibly even better. It fits better, and has better connections with, East Yorkshire. It certainly does not belong in North Yorkshire.
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 22, 2021 9:09:22 GMT
Selby is quite as good a fit to York as it is to East Yorkshire, possibly even better. It fits better, and has better connections with, East Yorkshire. It certainly does not belong in North Yorkshire. But it could do? There is no strong reason for it to be in or for it to not be in all three of them.
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Post by bjornhattan on Jul 22, 2021 9:23:54 GMT
Selby is quite as good a fit to York as it is to East Yorkshire, possibly even better. It fits better, and has better connections with, East Yorkshire. It certainly does not belong in North Yorkshire. I think one objective way of trying to measure this is to look where the buses go from Selby. These should reflect local travel flows which are likely to reflect community ties. I've excluded all routes which remain entirely within the Selby council area, and then added up how many buses leave the town for various destinations every day. 1 (to Holme on Spalding Moor): 2 1 (to Market Weighton): 2 2 (to Howden): 1 3 (to Goole and Thorne): 1 42 (to York): 9 164 (to Leeds): 6 401 (to Goole): 12 405 (to Doncaster): 11 415 (to York): 52 476 (to Pontefract): 5 There are 61 buses per day to York, none to Harrogate (the only neighbouring North Yorkshire County Council district), 6 per day to Leeds, 5 per day to Wakefield, 12 to Doncaster, and 18 per day to East Yorkshire. That to me suggests York as a fairly obvious partner, while East Yorkshire is passable but not quite as good. But the lack of connections to Harrogate makes the planned single North Yorkshire unitary look particularly ridiculous. (From Tadcaster, the equivalent figures are 33 per day to York and 33 per day to Leeds - but still none at all into the Harrogate district.)
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Post by greenhert on Jul 22, 2021 9:37:40 GMT
It fits better, and has better connections with, East Yorkshire. It certainly does not belong in North Yorkshire. I think one objective way of trying to measure this is to look where the buses go from Selby. These should reflect local travel flows which are likely to reflect community ties. I've excluded all routes which remain entirely within the Selby council area, and then added up how many buses leave the town for various destinations every day. 1 (to Holme on Spalding Moor): 2 1 (to Market Weighton): 2 2 (to Howden): 1 3 (to Goole and Thorne): 1 42 (to York): 9 164 (to Leeds): 6 401 (to Goole): 12 405 (to Doncaster): 11 415 (to York): 52 476 (to Pontefract): 5 There are 61 buses per day to York, none to Harrogate (the only neighbouring North Yorkshire County Council district), 6 per day to Leeds, 5 per day to Wakefield, 12 to Doncaster, and 18 per day to East Yorkshire. That to me suggests York as a fairly obvious partner, while East Yorkshire is passable but not quite as good. But the lack of connections to Harrogate makes the planned single North Yorkshire unitary look particularly ridiculous. (From Tadcaster, the equivalent figures are 33 per day to York and 33 per day to Leeds - but still none at all into the Harrogate district.) I also considered its railway connections, which are mainly with East Yorkshire in addition to York.
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 22, 2021 9:46:03 GMT
It fits better, and has better connections with, East Yorkshire. It certainly does not belong in North Yorkshire. I think one objective way of trying to measure this is to look where the buses go from Selby. These should reflect local travel flows which are likely to reflect community ties. I've excluded all routes which remain entirely within the Selby council area, and then added up how many buses leave the town for various destinations every day. 1 (to Holme on Spalding Moor): 2 1 (to Market Weighton): 2 2 (to Howden): 1 3 (to Goole and Thorne): 1 42 (to York): 9 164 (to Leeds): 6 401 (to Goole): 12 405 (to Doncaster): 11 415 (to York): 52 476 (to Pontefract): 5 There are 61 buses per day to York, none to Harrogate (the only neighbouring North Yorkshire County Council district), 6 per day to Leeds, 5 per day to Wakefield, 12 to Doncaster, and 18 per day to East Yorkshire. That to me suggests York as a fairly obvious partner, while East Yorkshire is passable but not quite as good. But the lack of connections to Harrogate makes the planned single North Yorkshire unitary look particularly ridiculous. (From Tadcaster, the equivalent figures are 33 per day to York and 33 per day to Leeds - but still none at all into the Harrogate district.) That represents all that is useless about research and statistics and 'proves' the square root of bugger all. So much work to so little purpose. The busses reflect geography and demand. Of course people don't want to travel to Harrogate from Selby (or vice versa). Why would they? And why does it matter? Find me an elector who demands to be in a constituency only with other electors he sees on his bus and not horrid aliens at the nearby town he doesn't go to, but which is quite similar to his town. Selby is odd and oddly situated. It feels mainly a West Riding type town, but has a bit of an East Riding feel as well. It could sit in the North Riding without complaint too. It is pure 'Yorkshire' and fits in with any part of Yorkshire. It is least like York but that is where people want to go for obvious reasons.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Jul 22, 2021 9:59:59 GMT
Strangely enough a couple of days ago when I was looking for some 'notional results' maps I found this (obviously in the wrong folder) Not sure if I have posted this before or when it was originally created. I think I would move some of the southern parts of Selby district into Doncaster and/or Wakefield and the eastern wards into the East Riding but I think the fundamentals of this plan are sound. Of course this ridiculous North Yorkshire scheme now means that the whole of the Yorkshire and Humber region will be made up of single tier councils (joining the North East where that has been the case for some time). I favour Unitary councils everywhere but not in the ad hoc, piecemeal, inconsistent and fuckwitted way in which it is being done
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Post by bjornhattan on Jul 22, 2021 10:07:49 GMT
I think one objective way of trying to measure this is to look where the buses go from Selby. These should reflect local travel flows which are likely to reflect community ties. I've excluded all routes which remain entirely within the Selby council area, and then added up how many buses leave the town for various destinations every day. 1 (to Holme on Spalding Moor): 2 1 (to Market Weighton): 2 2 (to Howden): 1 3 (to Goole and Thorne): 1 42 (to York): 9 164 (to Leeds): 6 401 (to Goole): 12 405 (to Doncaster): 11 415 (to York): 52 476 (to Pontefract): 5 There are 61 buses per day to York, none to Harrogate (the only neighbouring North Yorkshire County Council district), 6 per day to Leeds, 5 per day to Wakefield, 12 to Doncaster, and 18 per day to East Yorkshire. That to me suggests York as a fairly obvious partner, while East Yorkshire is passable but not quite as good. But the lack of connections to Harrogate makes the planned single North Yorkshire unitary look particularly ridiculous. (From Tadcaster, the equivalent figures are 33 per day to York and 33 per day to Leeds - but still none at all into the Harrogate district.) That represents all that is useless about research and statistics and 'proves' the square root of bugger all. So much work to so little purpose. The busses reflect geography and demand. Of course people don't want to travelto Harrogate from Selby (or vice versa). Why would they? And why does it matter? Find me an elector who demands to be in a constituency only with other electors he sees on his bus md not horrid aliens at the nearby town he doesn't go to but it quite similar to his town. Selby is odd and oddly situated. It feels mainly a West Riding type town, but has a bit of an East Riding feel as well. It could sit in the North Riding without complaint too. It is pure 'Yorkshire' and fits in with any part of Yorkshire. It is least like York but that is where people want to go for obvious reasons. There is a distinction between constituency boundaries and council boundaries though. Councils exist to provide local services, and in general these will be more efficient if they are provided over a sensible geographical area. Having what is essentially an exclave of North Yorkshire, which has much better ties to areas outside the authority, does not seem sensible in any way.
In my view, the best solution for Selby would either be retaining its independence, or expanding to take parts of neighbouring authorities (the West Riding town of Goole, or Garforth and Wetherby which have ended up in a "city" authority despite being small towns). However, neither is at all likely - the government have decided merging districts into huge unitaries is their preferred approach. Under that system, the best option for Selby would probably be joining with York. It isn't a great solution, particularly since while Selby certainly looks to York, the converse is not true at all - but it's probably the least bad one.
And as for your last point, I wouldn't say it was least like York at all - both are low lying and prone to flooding, are dominated by large religious buildings and their traditional economies have been based on transport and a little manufacturing. It's true that York is a much larger and wealthier city, but the two do have clear similarities.
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Post by greenhert on Jul 22, 2021 10:10:10 GMT
York UA remains unaffected? Yep. The two options were: North Yorkshire + York, or West North Yorkshire + East North Yorkshire linkI suggested West North Yorkshire (Craven, Hambleton, Harrogate and Richmondshire) and East North Yorkshire (Ryedale and Scarborough), with York remaining separate and Selby going into East Yorkshire, but sadly that option was not considered.
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Post by hullenedge on Jul 22, 2021 10:19:06 GMT
Strangely enough a couple of days ago when I was looking for some 'notional results' maps I found this (obviously in the wrong folder) Not sure if I have posted this before or when it was originally created. I think I would move some of the southern parts of Selby district into Doncaster and/or Wakefield and the eastern wards into the East Riding but I think the fundamentals of this plan are sound. Of course this ridiculous North Yorkshire scheme now means that the whole of the Yorkshire and Humber region will be made up of single tier councils (joining the North East where that has been the case for some time). I favour Unitary councils everywhere but not in the ad hoc, piecemeal, inconsistent and fuckwitted way in which it is being done Your West Riding authority would prove popular but less certain that Bradford would willingly give up territory.
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