Electoral law

[doktorb🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️]

Nov 23, 2023 21:40:21 GMT greenhert said:

Nov 21, 2023 22:41:07 GMT timrollpickering said:

What's a dead ward?

Presumably it means a noticeably deprived ward with a highly transient and apathetic population e.g. Harpurhey in Manchester, who are overall disinclined to even vote let alone sign nomination papers; these are the wards where turnout is regularly below 20%.

Not quite my definition though some parallels.

[lackeroftalent]

I am less than clear about the details from the report but the basics seem to be an actual conviction in relation to vote harvesting using postal ballots.

This has always seemed the vulnerable area in voting in the UK and was completely ignored and unaddressed by voter ID.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-67630574

[The Bishop]

Related to this are the rumours about old people's homes and the like which refuse to go away.

[Crimson King]

Dec 6, 2023 12:24:25 GMT lackeroftalent said:

I am less than clear about the details from the report but the basics seem to be an actual conviction in relation to vote harvesting using postal ballots.

This has always seemed the vulnerable area in voting in the UK and was completely ignored and unaddressed by voter ID.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-67630574

but it will be (partially) addressed by the new rukes on PV handling. It wont be neccesary to prove that the ballot paper itself was interfered with, taking them and handing them in will be an offence in its own right

[Davıd Boothroyd]

You won't have to wait long for that to happen - it comes iinto force next Tuesday.

[John Chanin]

Dec 6, 2023 13:23:16 GMT Crimson King said:

Dec 6, 2023 12:24:25 GMT lackeroftalent said:

I am less than clear about the details from the report but the basics seem to be an actual conviction in relation to vote harvesting using postal ballots.

This has always seemed the vulnerable area in voting in the UK and was completely ignored and unaddressed by voter ID.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-67630574

but it will be (partially) addressed by the new rukes on PV handling. It wont be neccesary to prove that the ballot paper itself was interfered with, taking them and handing them in will be an offence in its own right

So you just take them and post them. It won't make a blind bit of difference.

[Crimson King]

Dec 6, 2023 13:50:30 GMT John Chanin said:

Dec 6, 2023 13:23:16 GMT Crimson King said:

but it will be (partially) addressed by the new rukes on PV handling. It wont be neccesary to prove that the ballot paper itself was interfered with, taking them and handing them in will be an offence in its own right

So you just take them and post them. It won't make a blind bit of difference.

In this case this is what he did, however if the “rival candidate’ who observed it took a photo, that should be enough evidence, there would be no need to prove the ballots were touchrd (by fingerprinting) or for the person who they were taken from to stand up and say he was coerced (in this instance he appears to have changed his story presumably under pressure)

[timrollpickering]

Brits living abroad for more than 15 years get general election vote

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67993306

[John Chanin]

Jan 16, 2024 17:01:24 GMT timrollpickering said:

Brits living abroad for more than 15 years get general election vote

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67993306

I remain unconvinced that people who have emigrated permanently should decide what happens in Britain. And of course many of them feel the same and don't register to vote. However it is difficult to decide what 'permanent' means here, and the argument that people are still British citizens carries force.

However if they are to vote, we should do what many other countries do, and have specific overseas seats for them to vote in.  The MPs elected would then genuinely represent citizens living abroad, and wouldn't distort votes in Britain in places they may not have lived in for decades, or indeed at all.

[greyfriar]

As with many of these considerations, the traffic is one way: citizenship rights but not ongoing responsibilities. Most expats make no contributions to the UK exchequer whilst abroad, unlike the US system.

It’s not uncommon for workers to return from the likes of Africa or the Middle East after decades of tax free living when health declines or other social/consular assistance is required and receive that which we have all paid into.

Almost as galling as those who just work offshore and count their days to 182 to avoid tax liability, but de facto reside here and access all the civic entitlements along with their permanently resident families - arguably at least as big a target for correction as the non doms, but in each case derived from the bastardised implementation of Beveridge’s report by waiving away the contributory principle and instead launching the national Ponzi scheme.

[Pete Whitehead]

Jan 16, 2024 17:19:22 GMT John Chanin said:

Jan 16, 2024 17:01:24 GMT timrollpickering said:

Brits living abroad for more than 15 years get general election vote

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67993306

I remain unconvinced that people who have emigrated permanently should decide what happens in Britain. And of course many of them feel the same and don't register to vote. However it is difficult to decide what 'permanent' means here, and the argument that people are still British citizens carries force.

However if they are to vote, we should do what many other countries do, and have specific overseas seats for them to vote in.  The MPs elected would then genuinely represent citizens living abroad, and wouldn't distort votes in Britain in places they may not have lived in for decades, or indeed at all.

I don't mind your idea of overseas constituencies, but I find it hard to object generally to British citizens being given a vote when foreign nationals are given votes willy nilly. You have international students who by virtue of their citizenship of some banana republic which happens to be a member of the Commonwealth, get to vote even in referendums deciding the country's constitutional future (EU, Scottis Independence etc) and might pernamently leave the country a week later.

[John Chanin]

Jan 16, 2024 17:53:33 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

Jan 16, 2024 17:19:22 GMT John Chanin said:

I remain unconvinced that people who have emigrated permanently should decide what happens in Britain. And of course many of them feel the same and don't register to vote. However it is difficult to decide what 'permanent' means here, and the argument that people are still British citizens carries force.

However if they are to vote, we should do what many other countries do, and have specific overseas seats for them to vote in.  The MPs elected would then genuinely represent citizens living abroad, and wouldn't distort votes in Britain in places they may not have lived in for decades, or indeed at all.

I don't mind your idea of overseas constituencies, but I find it hard to object generally to British citizens being given a vote when foreign nationals are given votes willy nilly. You have international students who by virtue of their citizenship of some banana republic which happens to be a member of the Commonwealth, get to vote even in referendums deciding the country's constitutional future (EU, Scottis Independence etc) and might pernamently leave the country a week later.

Yes there is that too.  Either you give the vote to all who have permanent residence rights in the UK, or you take the view that those with permanent rights could become British citizens if they wanted to.  The difficulty with the latter is that some countries don't allow dual nationality, but you can argue that isn't our problem.  The commonwealth shouldn't have anything to do with it.

[carolus]

Overseas constituencies would open up the exciting possibility of getting to draw boundaries on other countries as well. I should think we'd need a series of fact finding expeditions to ensure such boundaries make sense on the ground.

[andrewteale]

Jan 16, 2024 20:13:08 GMT carolus said:

Overseas constituencies would open up the exciting possibility of getting to draw boundaries on other countries as well. I should think we'd need a series of fact finding expeditions to ensure such boundaries make sense on the ground.

Trying to draw a boundary through the Caribbean islands could be tricky. We might need an series of hearings on as many islands as possible to gather evidence of local ties.

[J.G.Harston]

Jan 16, 2024 20:13:08 GMT carolus said:

Overseas constituencies would open up the exciting possibility of getting to draw boundaries on other countries as well. I should think we'd need a series of fact finding expeditions to ensure such boundaries make sense on the ground.

I'm rubbing hands at the prospect of Hong Kong outvoting the entirety of Scotland.

[carlton43]

Jan 16, 2024 17:19:22 GMT John Chanin said:

Jan 16, 2024 17:01:24 GMT timrollpickering said:

Brits living abroad for more than 15 years get general election vote

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67993306

I remain unconvinced that people who have emigrated permanently should decide what happens in Britain. And of course many of them feel the same and don't register to vote. However it is difficult to decide what 'permanent' means here, and the argument that people are still British citizens carries force.

However if they are to vote, we should do what many other countries do, and have specific overseas seats for them to vote in.  The MPs elected would then genuinely represent citizens living abroad, and wouldn't distort votes in Britain in places they may not have lived in for decades, or indeed at all.

I was for some years one such voter myself and 'distorted' the vote in Ross, Cromarty and Skye.   And then I returned and lived in that constituency again.

I had elected to stay British and was thus not entitled to vote in the GE of any other country.  Should I have been totally disenfranchised by your own strictures?  If so ..... Why?

And I paid tax on all income from every source to the UK as many others do.  So what about the 'No taxation without representation argument'?

And what about the 'distortion' to the vote in many places of 'here today and gone tomorrow' students, most of whom have little interest in and no commitment to the life and future of their very temporary partial part of the year abode.  Many of whom being registered and voting at home as well?  How does that sit with you?

[edgbaston]

I would have just one seat for all brits outside of the UK. It would allow them to vote, be represented, ect, but not have any actual impact on government formation and ensure their votes still count for less than the people who actually live here. The elections in such a constituency would be fascinating.

[johnloony]

Jan 16, 2024 21:56:04 GMT carlton43 said:

Jan 16, 2024 17:19:22 GMT John Chanin said:

I remain unconvinced that people who have emigrated permanently should decide what happens in Britain. And of course many of them feel the same and don't register to vote. However it is difficult to decide what 'permanent' means here, and the argument that people are still British citizens carries force.

However if they are to vote, we should do what many other countries do, and have specific overseas seats for them to vote in.  The MPs elected would then genuinely represent citizens living abroad, and wouldn't distort votes in Britain in places they may not have lived in for decades, or indeed at all.

I was for some years one such voter myself and 'distorted' the vote in Ross, Cromarty and Skye.   And then I returned and lived in that constituency again.

I had elected to stay British and was thus not entitled to vote in the GE of any other country.  Should I have been totally disenfranchised by your own strictures?  If so ..... Why?

And I paid tax on all income from every source to the UK as many others do.  So what about the 'No taxation without representation argument'?

And what about the 'distortion' to the vote in many places of 'here today and gone tomorrow' students, most of whom have little interest in and no commitment to the life and future of their very temporary partial part of the year abode.  Many of whom being registered and voting at home as well?  How does that sit with you?

FWIW, I think that UK citizens overseas should not be allowed to vote if they have been abroad for a substantial amount of time. (Living abroad for a substantially long time (perhaps about 3 or 5 years) is a proxy for being unlikely to be back in the UK for any reasonably foreseeable time in the future.). The only people who should be allowed to vote are those who have a stake in the future of the country, i.e. those who live here.

On the other side of the equation, those who do live in the UK, and who are likely to stay for a long time, should be allowed to vote. For me, that means that long-term resident alien / immigrants should get UK citizenship (perhaps after 5 years of residence) by virtue of long-term residency.

Going off on a tangent, I think also that all prisoners should be allowed to vote (by postal vote) in the constituency where there home was before they were imprisoned. If a prisoner has a grievance about prison conditions or about the progress of their appeal (or whatever), they should be allowed to write to their MP about it, and judge their MP’s performance by their vote accordingly. For me, this is about the 68,537th most important issue, so in real terms I don’t care that convicted prisoners can’t vote.

[carlton43]

Jan 16, 2024 22:30:53 GMT johnloony said:

Jan 16, 2024 21:56:04 GMT carlton43 said:

I was for some years one such voter myself and 'distorted' the vote in Ross, Cromarty and Skye.   And then I returned and lived in that constituency again.

I had elected to stay British and was thus not entitled to vote in the GE of any other country.  Should I have been totally disenfranchised by your own strictures?  If so ..... Why?

And I paid tax on all income from every source to the UK as many others do.  So what about the 'No taxation without representation argument'?

And what about the 'distortion' to the vote in many places of 'here today and gone tomorrow' students, most of whom have little interest in and no commitment to the life and future of their very temporary partial part of the year abode.  Many of whom being registered and voting at home as well?  How does that sit with you?

FWIW, I think that UK citizens overseas should not be allowed to vote if they have been abroad for a substantial amount of time. (Living abroad for a substantially long time (perhaps about 3 or 5 years) is a proxy for being unlikely to be back in the UK for any reasonably foreseeable time in the future.). The only people who should be allowed to vote are those who have a stake in the future of the country, i.e. those who live here.

On the other side of the equation, those who do live in the UK, and who are likely to stay for a long time, should be allowed to vote. For me, that means that long-term resident alien / immigrants should get UK citizenship (perhaps after 5 years of residence) by virtue of long-term residency.

Going off on a tangent, I think also that all prisoners should be allowed to vote (by postal vote) in the constituency where there home was before they were imprisoned. If a prisoner has a grievance about prison conditions or about the progress of their appeal (or whatever), they should be allowed to write to their MP about it, and judge their MP’s performance by their vote accordingly. For me, this is about the 68,537th most important issue, so in real terms I don’t care that convicted prisoners can’t vote.

I am adamantly opposed to all those opinions and to the reasoning behind them.

Care to advance an opinion on why I should have been denied a vote even though I spent my entire working life 'WORKING' in Britain and paying their taxes and NIC and continued to so whilst living abroad and was not entitled to vote in any other country?

[carlton43]

Jan 16, 2024 22:22:31 GMT edgbaston said:

I would have just one seat for all brits outside of the UK. It would allow them to vote, be represented, ect, but not have any actual impact on government formation and ensure their votes still count for less than the people who actually live here. The elections in such a constituency would be fascinating.

You pathetic bunch of 'Little Englanders'.