Pimpernal
Forum Regular
A left-wing agenda within a right-wing framework...
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Post by Pimpernal on Nov 12, 2013 6:16:29 GMT
I have a feeling that in politics Frank Ward may be nearer to Pimp than to Pete W. “There are indigenous people in Borehamwood who are being forced out by immigrants with large families who take affordable housing from them and keep breeding.” I can't imagine Pimp uttering those lines. I'm not really terribly PC but that is a bit much. Not sure the phrase "The magic’s come back, it’s running off my fingers" has ever featured in any of my leaflets either...
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Nov 12, 2013 10:58:25 GMT
With the views he expresses, we are well rid of him. Not that uncommon for people of his age, though. Even quite a few who consider themselves leftwing. I vaguely recall the fuss over his deselection and so on at the time - got the impression it was part of a wider purge of the "old guard" in the local party in response to the Tory tide sweeping over everything back then. Pete might know more, I suspect....
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Post by notabrummie on Nov 12, 2013 17:07:05 GMT
The English Democrats are claiming that Jenny Knight, former Chairman of both Gloucestershire UKIP and the Cotswold branch has joined them and is to be their lead candidate for the EU elections in the London Region.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Nov 12, 2013 17:43:48 GMT
With the views he expresses, we are well rid of him. When you've done purging the Labour party of everyone you disapprove of there's only going to be you and Old War Horse left
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 12, 2013 21:30:38 GMT
Being serious : I think thst those sort of views are better outside the Labour party. If he really does belueve Ukip's poluticsl stances reflect his view its likely that he has been out of step with Labour for a while. Still don't reslly get how these people can overlook the free market economic libertarianism of Ukip though.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 12, 2013 22:12:31 GMT
With the views he expresses, we are well rid of him. Not that uncommon for people of his age, though. Even quite a few who consider themselves leftwing. I vaguely recall the fuss over his deselection and so on at the time - got the impression it was part of a wider purge of the "old guard" in the local party in response to the Tory tide sweeping over everything back then. Pete might know more, I suspect.... Dockers for Enoch!
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dazza
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Post by dazza on Nov 13, 2013 6:13:51 GMT
What I have really noticed, with Labour, over the past few years is that the Regional Party are interviewing all prospective candidates and a fair few are not making it through to the panel.Previously sitting Cllrs went through automatically and it was up to their ward parties to decide if they wanted them again. I have noticed that a lot of people are not getting through interview on the grounds of being 'too old' or having a disability ie the inference that they cannot do the work.I have also noticed that what Labour councillors are expected to do has been ratcheted up enormously.The powers that be may want to create some sort of Cromwellian New Model Army, but I think it just stops people with 'proper' jobs participating, so we are back to square one with the retired,unemployed and the unemployable, plus of course those with politically linked jobs.
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Nov 13, 2013 11:04:02 GMT
When I finished college (in the mid80s!) I spent a summer working at a summer camp in upstate New York. It was a Jewish camp, mainly for children of rich families from New York City. The camp motto, over the gateOne would have assumed that mottoes over gates would not be welcomed by this particular demographic...
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Nov 13, 2013 11:16:48 GMT
No. None at all. A populist demagogue with rapidly changing radical views and a core of repellent authoritarianism. Could only survive in an open democracy... but just the sort to nip such democracy in the bud if ever himself in charge. Dangerous, unpleasant and rather dim. So dim that you have refused to engage me in a discussion/argument? Tell us why you're a big fan. I'm intrigued.
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The Bishop
Labour
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Post by The Bishop on Nov 13, 2013 11:39:10 GMT
I have some sympathy with the above.
Some of the more intelligent Tories see "culture war" politics as how they can rebuild support outside their heartlands. We shouldn't indulge them overmuch IMO.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2013 11:56:53 GMT
Not that uncommon for people of his age, though. Even quite a few who consider themselves leftwing. I vaguely recall the fuss over his deselection and so on at the time - got the impression it was part of a wider purge of the "old guard" in the local party in response to the Tory tide sweeping over everything back then. Pete might know more, I suspect.... Frank Ward's views may be simplistic and crudely expressed, but they are shared by many of our voters - come and canvass with me if you don't believe it. Round here, you can also hear similar opinions being expressed in constituency and branch meetings. It is a fact - whether some people like it or not - that a large part of our base is socially and culturally conservative. That is one of the reasons why I have always felt that we should keep our agenda focused on bread-and-butter economic issues rather than getting dragged into American-style culture war politics. You can be a social democrat without being a social liberal, although some of our members - and particularly the younger ones - do not appreciate the distinction. Whilst you are right there Trident, it should be remebered those more 'socially conservative' people are dying off and those people like myself, middle aged and coming up to retirement are actually far more socially liberal than our parents or grandparents. Sure some WWC may worry about foreigners taking their jobs but shoudl we pander to that or rather try and educate into why it is happening. A part of this was the destruction of a complete manual base of labour that no longer exists, be it coal mining, steel works or just general manufacturing.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Nov 13, 2013 11:56:55 GMT
I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the argument, but immigration and benefits aren't solely a culture issue. They've got definite economic impacts, and that's why ignoring them or speaking about them without thinking beforehand holds such dangers. In addition, you can't win a national election by talking to your base, and the swing voters we need to win, particularly outside the north, are much more likely to be socially liberal.
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Post by thirdchill on Nov 13, 2013 12:18:59 GMT
I'm not aware of people being deselected for being old or disabled, and I would be extremely shocked if that were the case. That would be entirely contrary to our beliefs and values. There may be people who have been de-panelled for laziness or poor performance and have played the discrimination card, even though there are other councillors who are also of older years or disabled, but work much harder than they do. I would also be shocked by this. Older councillors can give a wealth of experience and knowledge and plenty will put a lot of work in. However in some cases there are those who stop contributing like they should, and get put out when they are deselected. They think that because they have been on the council for 20 years or more, they have a right to be selected. They don't. Dead wood can be common to both us and labour (in a couple of cases the lib dems though not quite as much). The problem is in safe wards, you can effectively be a councillor for life with little work. In safe conservative wards, the only possible threat is from a well placed local independent. In safe labour wards even this is not usually enough, and have noticed independents do less well in safe labour wards. Hence the argument in liverpool between Jake and Luciana Berger. He accused her of managing councillors in a similar way. I'm not saying this is true but there's probably a number of cases like this. Sone MP's get too big for their boots and some long serving councillors can be very dismissive of a new MP.
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 13, 2013 14:20:43 GMT
Not that uncommon for people of his age, though. Even quite a few who consider themselves leftwing. I vaguely recall the fuss over his deselection and so on at the time - got the impression it was part of a wider purge of the "old guard" in the local party in response to the Tory tide sweeping over everything back then. Pete might know more, I suspect.... Frank Ward's views may be simplistic and crudely expressed, but they are shared by many of our voters - come and canvass with me if you don't believe it. Round here, you can also hear similar opinions being expressed in constituency and branch meetings. It is a fact - whether some people like it or not - that a large part of our base is socially and culturally conservative. That is one of the reasons why I have always felt that we should keep our agenda focused on bread-and-butter economic issues rather than getting dragged into American-style culture war politics. You can be a social democrat without being a social liberal, although some of our members - and particularly the younger ones - do not appreciate the distinction. No, I think its because you are a bit of a dinosaur and don't recognise that many of us joined the Labour party BECAUSE of those issues you want to marginalise. Thankfully, this is certainly the overwhelming view in the party now - the CLP in my own seat made it clear to our MP that we didn't support his stance on gay marriage, for example, and the MP's voting against were the 'usual suspects'. There is a broad consensus within the party and the social conservatives are in a very small minority. Indeed, many may not necessarily feel that economic policies are what brought them into politics at all. They're not a major part of my own interest in any direct sense.
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 13, 2013 14:23:31 GMT
On the other hand, I think we have some people in the party apparatus who have never served as councillors and do not really understand the role or the time pressures involved. They seem to think that candidates and councillors should be managed like call centre workers and the main focus of the role should be collecting voter ID data. What many local authorities need is more members who work full time, including those from a professional background who can get their heads round a budget and ask probing questions to officers. At times like now - where there are real, and painful, decisions to be made, that level of input is more important than it has ever been. There is a balance to be struck. On this one I agree with you. I think the demise of the committee system hasn't helped thisin that often local wards seem to think that the ward based work is the only thing of importance snd so they are not selecting the sort of candidates who can get to grips with some of those issues and make the scrutiny panels work, for example. It is also the case that the best and most capable people are not necessarily those who hold the cabinet positions
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2013 15:38:15 GMT
Frank Ward's views may be simplistic and crudely expressed, but they are shared by many of our voters - come and canvass with me if you don't believe it. Round here, you can also hear similar opinions being expressed in constituency and branch meetings. It is a fact - whether some people like it or not - that a large part of our base is socially and culturally conservative. That is one of the reasons why I have always felt that we should keep our agenda focused on bread-and-butter economic issues rather than getting dragged into American-style culture war politics. You can be a social democrat without being a social liberal, although some of our members - and particularly the younger ones - do not appreciate the distinction. No, I think its because you are a bit of a dinosaur and don't recognise that many of us joined the Labour party BECAUSE of those issues you want to marginalise. Thankfully, this is certainly the overwhelming view in the party now - the CLP in my own seat made it clear to our MP that we didn't support his stance on gay marriage, for example, and the MP's voting against were the 'usual suspects'. There is a broad consensus within the party and the social conservatives are in a very small minority. Indeed, many may not necessarily feel that economic policies are what brought them into politics at all. They're not a major part of my own interest in any direct sense.Ill mark you as a "P" then
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dazza
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Post by dazza on Nov 14, 2013 5:15:34 GMT
I am aware of people who are being deselected because of age and disability.Councillors are now being expected to do hundreds of 'contacts' every month and are being asked what balance they make between the Council and the Community, as if the time you spend is mutually exclusive.The MP's some areas are acting as if they are the line manager of Cllrs.In my former part of the world the interviews were by regional party.The members had no knowledge of the candidates for panel, except on that interview.Old people and the disabled are being excluded as they cannot do the foot soldier stuff as effectively as younger/able bodied people.
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Post by thirdchill on Nov 14, 2013 11:52:13 GMT
]No, I think its because you are a bit of a dinosaur and don't recognise that many of us joined the Labour party BECAUSE of those issues you want to marginalise. Thankfully, this is certainly the overwhelming view in the party now - the CLP in my own seat made it clear to our MP that we didn't support his stance on gay marriage, for example, and the MP's voting against were the 'usual suspects'. There is a broad consensus within the party and the social conservatives are in a very small minority. Indeed, many may not necessarily feel that economic policies are what brought them into politics at all. They're not a major part of my own interest in any direct sense. You are always going to get labour party members who are socially conservative in some of their views. There are plenty, for instance, who are anti-abortion. There are also plenty of others who really dislike widespread immigration, especially some of those in areas with direct experience of large scale immigration over years. The anti-gay element is largely decreasing though. You can't simply exclude these people and hope to have a broad church labour party. Many of these people might well believe in socialist economic policies or will even be labour members simply because they want good schools and hospitals and believe that the labour party are best placed to deliver these. That is certainly my experience of some labour party members and plenty of labour party voters. The labour party local organisations made a huge mistake in the 1980's in attempting to boot out candidates who were largely social democratic. Our party made a huge mistake of a candidates views on the EU being the most important factor (some of the right wing still believe this). Neither party can simply be a sectional interest.
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 14, 2013 15:28:53 GMT
]No, I think its because you are a bit of a dinosaur and don't recognise that many of us joined the Labour party BECAUSE of those issues you want to marginalise. Thankfully, this is certainly the overwhelming view in the party now - the CLP in my own seat made it clear to our MP that we didn't support his stance on gay marriage, for example, and the MP's voting against were the 'usual suspects'. There is a broad consensus within the party and the social conservatives are in a very small minority. Indeed, many may not necessarily feel that economic policies are what brought them into politics at all. They're not a major part of my own interest in any direct sense. You are always going to get labour party members who are socially conservative in some of their views. There are plenty, for instance, who are anti-abortion. There are also plenty of others who really dislike widespread immigration, especially some of those in areas with direct experience of large scale immigration over years. The anti-gay element is largely decreasing though. You can't simply exclude these people and hope to have a broad church labour party. Many of these people might well believe in socialist economic policies or will even be labour members simply because they want good schools and hospitals and believe that the labour party are best placed to deliver these. That is certainly my experience of some labour party members and plenty of labour party voters. The labour party local organisations made a huge mistake in the 1980's in attempting to boot out candidates who were largely social democratic. Our party made a huge mistake of a candidates views on the EU being the most important factor (some of the right wing still believe this). Neither party can simply be a sectional interest. I think, though, that the party has pretty much bought the equalities agenda that once seemed so radical - in fact trident has acknowledged that this is the case amongst younger members. I just don't think being openly anti-gay would be acceptable at a Labour selection conference, for example. And I'm not so sure whether that view on immigration is that widespread in terms of party members though certainly some voters feel that way. The party realises, I think, that its never going to be a vote winner for us because its just not possible to shift our policies in the way a Ukip waverer would want Even on abortion there are actually quite a small number of Labour MP's who would vote for it to be made illegal - most Labour Catholics take the Tony Blair line, that they wouldn't personally have an abortion but accept that this is not something they want to impose on the wider population. I don't really think that there is much of a culture war issue in the party. We do get the votes of most minorities and our official position reflects that reality. It could well be that we have lost a few white van men along the way....
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Post by Merseymike on Nov 14, 2013 15:32:20 GMT
I am aware of people who are being deselected because of age and disability.Councillors are now being expected to do hundreds of 'contacts' every month and are being asked what balance they make between the Council and the Community, as if the time you spend is mutually exclusive.The MP's some areas are acting as if they are the line manager of Cllrs.In my former part of the world the interviews were by regional party.The members had no knowledge of the candidates for panel, except on that interview.Old people and the disabled are being excluded as they cannot do the foot soldier stuff as effectively as younger/able bodied people. This sort of thing is, in my view, unacceptable - in some areas people are actually resisting, and of course there has been some well publicised spats notably in Liverpool, where Independent councillor Jake Morrison left the Labour party because o the behaviour of Luciana Berger MP and a former party organiser, Sheila Murphy - he wasn't happy with the way they were trying to control him. I wouldn't be either. We need a range of councillors. We do need the foot soldiers but we also need toe effective caseworkers, and those who can get to grips with policy analysis and scrutiny.
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