Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,004
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 6, 2015 13:01:06 GMT
And if Osborne finds it so easy to adapt elements of past Labour policy it simply suggests that we haven't escaped the triangulation of the New Labour years - indeed that was all too obvious in Ed Balls' approach Or the more pragmatic political approach of 'if you see a good idea then pinch it' As a Lib Dem you get very used to that happening to your own policies by the 'Big Two'. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,004
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 6, 2015 13:06:19 GMT
Though it maybe helps  Not really, I come across few Tories in local government of my acquaintance who think Academies are a good idea, or at least a good idea while the local authority has responsibility for the education of all the children in the council area but have no influence/supportive role with Academies or Free Schools. The ironic thing about both the school models is that they are that their introduction is the most centralising education 'reform' since the national curriculum. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,874
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 6, 2015 13:13:53 GMT
It was a little joke, based on the old quip "you don't have to be mad to........" Sorry that it went over people's heads, I had hoped the smiley might be a clue  |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 6, 2015 15:22:53 GMT
What I dislike in the main are the specialist academies. I don't like the idea of schools choosing a child's specialism (as often seems to happen, I've seen examples), that should wait until later when they have had a good exposure to plenty of subjects and can make a decision for themselves.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,004
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 6, 2015 17:06:11 GMT
I also think the Academy agenda is a bit rum. It is all about letting meddling do gooders with an agenda access public funds in exchange for a vision they have had of a pig in a poke. Often people like Catholics, Baptists and Muslims. And hedge fund managers... Indeed the entry of 'do-gooders' like that into the education system is most unwelcome (and I speak as a Christian that would end the involvement of religions in state education). I don't want vested interests of any kind to have more power over children's education. The notion of Academies giving more power to teachers and parents is one of the biggest lies ever propagated in education. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Oct 6, 2015 17:21:49 GMT
To be fair, Adonis' model of academisation was very different from the current one. Whereas the current model is mostly about making oversight impossible (with a little bit of empire-building as a side order), the Adonis model was about installing powerful heads and removing all curbs on their authority. Which was certainly effective in terms of raw results, but had rather more mixed outcomes if you looked a little deeper.
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,004
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 6, 2015 17:30:18 GMT
To be fair, Adonis' model of academisation was very different from the current one. Whereas the current model is mostly about making oversight impossible (with a little bit of empire-building as a side order), the Adonis model was about installing powerful heads and removing all curbs on their authority. Which was certainly effective in terms of raw results, but had rather more mixed outcomes if you looked a little deeper. But it was built on a lie because the sponsors ultimately call the shots, not the headteacher. Even if it is a headteacher allowed to call the shots academies are rife with results manipulation, large amounts of exclusions and simply refusing to enter pupils for certain exams. Our one pre 2010 academy in Portsmouth has a much smaller roll than it should have due to a combination of all three of those things. I actually quite like Adonis when it comes to infrastructure but his education policy involvement is typical technocratic, managerial rubbish. |
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
Posts: 15,770 
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Post by john07 on Oct 6, 2015 17:35:33 GMT
What I dislike in the main are the specialist academies. I don't like the idea of schools choosing a child's specialism (as often seems to happen, I've seen examples), that should wait until later when they have had a good exposure to plenty of subjects and can make a decision for themselves. Specialism occurs outside the academy sector. In Edinburgh there is a specialist music school within the maintained sector. It is a unit attached to Flora Stevenson Primary and Broughton High School in Stockbridge. My son attended both from Primary 7 and Secondary 1-6. Those in the unit spend up to one third of their curriculum on music. Without specialisation, this would not have been possible. Far from the school choosing the child's specialism it it the child and parents who choose to apply and audition for a place in the unit. The remainer of school are not part of the unit but do have the benefit of a good school wind band, string orchestra and jazz band to join. Amongst others the unit has helped to produce Shirley Manson and the late bagpiper Martyn Bennett. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Oct 6, 2015 17:44:01 GMT
To be fair, Adonis' model of academisation was very different from the current one. Whereas the current model is mostly about making oversight impossible (with a little bit of empire-building as a side order), the Adonis model was about installing powerful heads and removing all curbs on their authority. Which was certainly effective in terms of raw results, but had rather more mixed outcomes if you looked a little deeper. But it was built on a lie because the sponsors ultimately call the shots, not the headteacher. Even if it is a headteacher allowed to call the shots academies are rife with results manipulation, large amounts of exclusions and simply refusing to enter pupils for certain exams. Our one pre 2010 academy in Portsmouth has a much smaller roll than it should have due to a combination of all three of those things. I actually quite like Adonis when it comes to infrastructure but his education policy involvement is typical technocratic, managerial rubbish. I agree absolutely, except that I think it might have been preferable if the sponsors had had more influence relative to the headteachers - because the ideal academy headteacher was a functional sociopath and they often managed to find an ideal candidate. Results manipulation wasn't the only problem - a lot of academies burnt through staff at a catastrophically fast pace, and many have found themselves in difficulty after the initial charismatic head moved swiftly on to a new position. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,004
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 6, 2015 17:56:12 GMT
But it was built on a lie because the sponsors ultimately call the shots, not the headteacher. Even if it is a headteacher allowed to call the shots academies are rife with results manipulation, large amounts of exclusions and simply refusing to enter pupils for certain exams. Our one pre 2010 academy in Portsmouth has a much smaller roll than it should have due to a combination of all three of those things. I actually quite like Adonis when it comes to infrastructure but his education policy involvement is typical technocratic, managerial rubbish. I agree absolutely, except that I think it might have been preferable if the sponsors had had more influence relative to the headteachers - because the ideal academy headteacher was a functional sociopath and they often managed to find an ideal candidate. Results manipulation wasn't the only problem - a lot of academies burnt through staff at a catastrophically fast pace, and many have found themselves in difficulty after the initial charismatic head moved swiftly on to a new position. That's an interesting point. Essentially Academies are a bad idea full stop because of the reasons you mention. If the effort had been put into partnerships between education authorities and outside organisations rather than removing LA's altogether I think overall standards would have improved. Interestingly the Head at our pre-2010 academy is still in post, I wait in trepidation when ARK move her to pastures new to 'clean up' a mess at one of their other schools. |
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 6, 2015 18:20:02 GMT
To be fair, Adonis' model of academisation was very different from the current one. Whereas the current model is mostly about making oversight impossible (with a little bit of empire-building as a side order), the Adonis model was about installing powerful heads and removing all curbs on their authority. Which was certainly effective in terms of raw results, but had rather more mixed outcomes if you looked a little deeper. Its very short termist - as they won't stay forever - and I have been a governor at a school where with the same head the rating was changed from outstanding to failed on subsequent OFSTED visits. The second one was clearly written before they had even visited the school - farcical political manipulation. The only significant change was a dip in maths results which could be entirely explained demographically - nothing else in the school had actually changed |
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 6, 2015 18:41:00 GMT
What I dislike in the main are the specialist academies. I don't like the idea of schools choosing a child's specialism (as often seems to happen, I've seen examples), that should wait until later when they have had a good exposure to plenty of subjects and can make a decision for themselves. This is by the by, but I think we should give a formal welcome to Devil Wincarnate 's new avatar.  |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 6, 2015 18:44:30 GMT
What I dislike in the main are the specialist academies. I don't like the idea of schools choosing a child's specialism (as often seems to happen, I've seen examples), that should wait until later when they have had a good exposure to plenty of subjects and can make a decision for themselves. This is by the by, but I think we should give a formal welcome to Devil Wincarnate 's new avatar. Who needs Corbyn's brave new world when Ludwig Erhard's old world was much better? |
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Post by finsobruce on Oct 6, 2015 18:48:11 GMT
This is by the by, but I think we should give a formal welcome to Devil Wincarnate 's new avatar. Who needs Corbyn's brave new world when Ludwig Erhard's old world was much better? Is it really true that he was never a member of the CDU, even when Chancellor? |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 6, 2015 20:04:33 GMT
Who needs Corbyn's brave new world when Ludwig Erhard's old world was much better? Is it really true that he was never a member of the CDU, even when Chancellor? That is indeed true, but wasn't revealed until a few years ago. Which is pretty curious, as he was repeatedly elected and clearly nobody realised he wasn't in the CDU. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Oct 6, 2015 22:18:39 GMT
To be fair, Adonis' model of academisation was very different from the current one. Whereas the current model is mostly about making oversight impossible (with a little bit of empire-building as a side order), the Adonis model was about installing powerful heads and removing all curbs on their authority. Which was certainly effective in terms of raw results, but had rather more mixed outcomes if you looked a little deeper. Its very short termist - as they won't stay forever - and I have been a governor at a school where with the same head the rating was changed from outstanding to failed on subsequent OFSTED visits. The second one was clearly written before they had even visited the school - farcical political manipulation. The only significant change was a dip in maths results which could be entirely explained demographically - nothing else in the school had actually changed That's more or less standard, from what I've heard. The data guides the inspection, it just depends whether you get a team who is willing to let what they see affect how they interpret the data or a team who have already made up their mind. Which is not to say that inspections aren't politicised (because there is an interesting correlation between making public critical remarks about Ofsted and career-ending inspection results), but they don't have to be politicised to be unhelpful. |
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Oct 6, 2015 23:48:04 GMT
I am unmoved by those who complain about vested interests having involvement in education while simultaneous championing the unbridled power of the state to interfere in education. I have little time for academies because they don't go anywhere near as far as I would like to see in bringing private organisations, and capital, into the provision of education.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Oct 7, 2015 0:07:04 GMT
Who's complaining about vested interests? Speaking personally, I've always been a great enthusiast for vested interests having a say.
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Oct 7, 2015 0:11:11 GMT
Who's complaining about vested interests? Speaking personally, I've always been a great enthusiast for vested interests having a say. I am sure that the term has been mentioned in this thread but I am happy to acknowledge your good sense on this matter even though I would imagine your view of how that would work in practice differs somewhat to mine. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,004
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 7, 2015 1:56:36 GMT
Who's complaining about vested interests? Speaking personally, I've always been a great enthusiast for vested interests having a say. Me. Being a Liberal it's kind of a article of faith to be suspicious of them. |
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