r34t
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Post by r34t on Mar 27, 2023 10:35:05 GMT
I get how someone can join a political party & then realise (once they are on the 'inside') that this isn't a great fit & change. But I don't understand how that lightbulb moment happens after you've made it all the way to being an MP, or to a lesser extent a councillor. Baffling. In addition to what's already been said there are instances of councillors who have been actively recruited by a party because they are established community activists/leaders, and thus make for a good candidate. Such candidates didn't actually choose their party, so have relatively little attachment to it. More a LibDem than Tory or Labour thing imho, locally the LDs refer to their council group as a coalition, I tend to look at them as a franchise.
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aargauer
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Post by aargauer on Mar 27, 2023 11:15:29 GMT
In addition to what's already been said there are instances of councillors who have been actively recruited by a party because they are established community activists/leaders, and thus make for a good candidate. Such candidates didn't actually choose their party, so have relatively little attachment to it. More a LibDem than Tory or Labour thing imho, locally the LDs refer to their council group as a coalition, I tend to look at them as a franchise. They also seem to have an incredibly weak whipping system. My friend decided to abstain on the budget - the lib dems are in coalition. At least in the tory councils I have known, that would be an instant deselection.
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r34t
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Post by r34t on Mar 27, 2023 11:45:33 GMT
More a LibDem than Tory or Labour thing imho, locally the LDs refer to their council group as a coalition, I tend to look at them as a franchise. They also seem to have an incredibly weak whipping system. My friend decided to abstain on the budget - the lib dems are in coalition. At least in the tory councils I have known, that would be an instant deselection. Same with Labour. I abstained on a poll tax budget (some years ago now !!) & was suspended for a year.
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iang
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Post by iang on Mar 27, 2023 11:52:33 GMT
I think there's some truth to that. We often pick up members through activity, who then get active, delivering Focus and so on, who then become candidates, who can then get elected as councillors - without anyone really saying "are you actually a liberal?". I think it is a reasonable point to say we have tended to be more vulnerable to defections than the other main parties.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Mar 27, 2023 12:04:41 GMT
More a LibDem than Tory or Labour thing imho, locally the LDs refer to their council group as a coalition, I tend to look at them as a franchise. They also seem to have an incredibly weak whipping system. My friend decided to abstain on the budget - the lib dems are in coalition. At least in the tory councils I have known, that would be an instant deselection. We never had a whip. Preferred it to the somewhat heavy-handed Labour approach summed up by a leisure committee debate on whether to permit fishing in our parks. A Labour councillor spoke strongly against, then voted for. When I asked him why he replied "group decision - whipped".
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 27, 2023 12:05:14 GMT
I think there's some truth to that. We often pick up members through activity, who then get active, delivering Focus and so on, who then become candidates, who can then get elected as councillors - without anyone really saying "are you actually a liberal?". I think it is a reasonable point to say we have tended to be more vulnerable to defections than the other main parties. I used to know someone who stood once as a Lib Dem candidate (around the time of the Iraq war) having been encouraged on the doorstep. She pointed out that she wasn't a member and wasn't really a Lib Dem : "Oh" came the reply "You don't need to be".
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Post by gwynthegriff on Mar 27, 2023 12:15:45 GMT
I think there's some truth to that. We often pick up members through activity, who then get active, delivering Focus and so on, who then become candidates, who can then get elected as councillors - without anyone really saying "are you actually a liberal?". I think it is a reasonable point to say we have tended to be more vulnerable to defections than the other main parties. I used to know someone who stood once as a Lib Dem candidate (around the time of the Iraq war) having been encouraged on the doorstep. She pointed out that she wasn't a member and wasn't really a Lib Dem : "Oh" came the reply "You don't need to be". I've known the Tories do the same (but not Labour).
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 27, 2023 12:29:08 GMT
I used to know someone who stood once as a Lib Dem candidate (around the time of the Iraq war) having been encouraged on the doorstep. She pointed out that she wasn't a member and wasn't really a Lib Dem : "Oh" came the reply "You don't need to be". I've known the Tories do the same (but not Labour). Many years ago I remember someone being advanced as a possible council candidate, with pressure to ignore the fact that he had only just joined the party. Someone then pointed out that the person in question wasn't yet a British citizen.
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Post by tonyhill on Mar 27, 2023 12:31:40 GMT
Reminds me of a Quaker friend who asked why I wasn't one, and when I said I didn't believe in God replied, "Oh, don't worry about that dear, lot's of Quakers don't believe in God!"
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Post by grahammurray on Mar 27, 2023 12:39:43 GMT
Reminds me of a Quaker friend who asked why I wasn't one, and when I said I didn't believe in God replied, "Oh, don't worry about that dear, lot's of Quakers don't believe in God!" I heard a description of Unitarians that claimed given the choice between proof that God existed and a debate about whether that was true, a Unitarian would choose the debate every time.
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Post by John Chanin on Mar 27, 2023 12:47:30 GMT
I get how someone can join a political party & then realise (once they are on the 'inside') that this isn't a great fit & change. But I don't understand how that lightbulb moment happens after you've made it all the way to being an MP, or to a lesser extent a councillor. Baffling. In addition to what's already been said there are instances of councillors who have been actively recruited by a party because they are established community activists/leaders, and thus make for a good candidate. Such candidates didn't actually choose their party, so have relatively little attachment to it. There was a lot of this in the Labour Party in the latter part of the last century, as they were keen to try and make their councillors representative of the rapidly growing ethnic minority communities. Once elected many such people discovered that they had little in common with their fellow Labour councillors, and disagreed on many policy issues. Defections were therefore common, and just as much the fault of the party that had too hastily endorsed them, as of the people who had accepted the endorsement. Things are of course rather different now in London, and most of these defections at present occur in other towns and cities.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
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Post by J.G.Harston on Mar 27, 2023 13:03:01 GMT
I've known the Tories do the same (but not Labour). Many years ago I remember someone being advanced as a possible council candidate, with pressure to ignore the fact that he had only just joined the party. Someone then pointed out that the person in question wasn't yet a British citizen. So what? In our electoral laws most* of the world can vote and be candidates here. *Only slightly exaggerated.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Mar 27, 2023 13:05:01 GMT
I think there's some truth to that. We often pick up members through activity, who then get active, delivering Focus and so on, who then become candidates, who can then get elected as councillors - without anyone really saying "are you actually a liberal?". I think it is a reasonable point to say we have tended to be more vulnerable to defections than the other main parties. I used to know someone who stood once as a Lib Dem candidate (around the time of the Iraq war) having been encouraged on the doorstep. She pointed out that she wasn't a member and wasn't really a Lib Dem : "Oh" came the reply "You don't need to be". Some of the people who cropped up as Lib Dem candidates in the last Westminster City Council had nothing whatsoever to do with the party. They include a committed Labour voter, and the Thatcherite Brexiteer journalist Harriet Sargeant. I understand they were just friends of the Lib Dem Parliamentary candidate who were asked if they minded being a name on a ballot paper.
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Post by finsobruce on Mar 27, 2023 13:08:09 GMT
Many years ago I remember someone being advanced as a possible council candidate, with pressure to ignore the fact that he had only just joined the party. Someone then pointed out that the person in question wasn't yet a British citizen. So what? In our electoral laws most* of the world can vote and be candidates here. *Only slightly exaggerated. Quite a lot exaggerated, and you know it. British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens with the right to remain. He didn't come under any of those categories.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
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Post by J.G.Harston on Mar 27, 2023 13:16:02 GMT
So what? In our electoral laws most* of the world can vote and be candidates here. *Only slightly exaggerated. Quite a lot exaggerated, and you know it. British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens with the right to remain. He didn't come under any of those categories.
Yeah, 33% of the global population, just slightly exaggerating the "slightly". It's really only comparitively recently that non-"British" people have been coming to Britain in any numbers.
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carolus
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Post by carolus on Mar 27, 2023 13:56:44 GMT
Hartlepool, Fens & Greatham (2023). Angela Falconer, Conservative to Independent.
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aargauer
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Post by aargauer on Mar 27, 2023 14:17:33 GMT
They also seem to have an incredibly weak whipping system. My friend decided to abstain on the budget - the lib dems are in coalition. At least in the tory councils I have known, that would be an instant deselection. We never had a whip. Preferred it to the somewhat heavy-handed Labour approach summed up by a leisure committee debate on whether to permit fishing in our parks. A Labour councillor spoke strongly against, then voted for. When I asked him why he replied "group decision - whipped". Without a whip are you actually a group, really?
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Post by lackeroftalent on Mar 27, 2023 14:46:39 GMT
I get how someone can join a political party & then realise (once they are on the 'inside') that this isn't a great fit & change. But I don't understand how that lightbulb moment happens after you've made it all the way to being an MP, or to a lesser extent a councillor. Baffling. In addition to what's already been said there are instances of councillors who have been actively recruited by a party because they are established community activists/leaders, and thus make for a good candidate. Such candidates didn't actually choose their party, so have relatively little attachment to it. I know of one individual locally approached by the Conservatives, Reform, Lib Dems and the Greens to stand in this years elections!
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Post by greenchristian on Mar 27, 2023 14:54:28 GMT
We never had a whip. Preferred it to the somewhat heavy-handed Labour approach summed up by a leisure committee debate on whether to permit fishing in our parks. A Labour councillor spoke strongly against, then voted for. When I asked him why he replied "group decision - whipped". Without a whip are you actually a group, really? A group is simply a set of at least two councillors on the same council who have told the council they wish to be recognised as a group and are not part of any other recognised group. Outside of some single-party groups there is no requirement or expectation that group members face sanctions from their group for not voting in a particular way. There are plenty of examples of groups of convenience (e.g. groups of independents who have no common ideology, or groups which incorporate a single councillor from another party) which are just as valid as single-party groups which do have a formal whipping system.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Mar 27, 2023 15:16:07 GMT
In addition to what's already been said there are instances of councillors who have been actively recruited by a party because they are established community activists/leaders, and thus make for a good candidate. Such candidates didn't actually choose their party, so have relatively little attachment to it. More a LibDem than Tory or Labour thing imho, locally the LDs refer to their council group as a coalition, I tend to look at them as a franchise. I've come across it in Labour and I've known it to work quite well. The key is that there are a lot of people who are Labour people, even if they would never have thought about joining until somebody suggested it to them. But you do have to know that before you ask them.
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