|
Post by johnloony on Jun 16, 2021 18:23:21 GMT
It could only be construed as fraud by a blithering nincompoop with no common sense. As a law graduate, I would agree a conviction for fraud is unlikely. The insults however are not nessecary. Not everyone on this forum is a legal expert. If someone points to an animal and asks me whether it’s an ant or a spider, I don’t need to be an expert in zoology to be able to point out that it’s actually a hippopotamus. The insults are necessary and appropriate, even if they are not nessecary.
|
|
peterl
Green
Monarchic Technocratic Localist
Posts: 8,270
|
Post by peterl on Jun 16, 2021 18:44:09 GMT
As a law graduate, I would agree a conviction for fraud is unlikely. The insults however are not nessecary. Not everyone on this forum is a legal expert. If someone points to an animal and asks me whether it’s an ant or a spider, I don’t need to be an expert in zoology to be able to point out that it’s actually a hippopotamus. The insults are necessary and appropriate, even if they are not nessecary. But the question of what is and is not fraud is a reasonably complex equation requiring some degree of prior knowledge. It would be more analogous perhaps to identifying a specific species of spider. My wider point is that civility should always be the norm.
|
|
|
Post by tonyhill on Jun 16, 2021 19:16:19 GMT
If someone stand for Party x in a seat that is safe for Party x, and has been financed in that endeavour by Party x, and has thereby secured a financial advantage in consequence then I would certainly consider that there is a case to answer if they change parties almost immediately. They have deceptively enriched themselves at other people's expense - i.e. committed a fraudulent act, and johnloony can be as rude as he likes but I suspect that if a case was brought it would not be dismissed out of hand in the manner that he suggests, whatever the final verdict on the situation might be.
|
|
J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,723
|
Post by J.G.Harston on Jun 16, 2021 22:53:41 GMT
I think the problem is that a promise to a party is just a promise and not something the latter can get the chief executive to act on. That's why I specifically wrote "contract". Breach terms of contract, suffer the specified penalties. Paying for the last 14 months of leaflets and an assessment of party workers' time. And if the contract says "in such event I shall submit my resignation to the council" and they don't, sue for breach of contract, skin'em for every penny they've got.
|
|
|
Post by stb12 on Jun 16, 2021 23:17:46 GMT
I agree with the moral case about defections and by-elections, but as far as legislating and putting laws in place for it I don't think so. If you stick to an electoral system where you're voting on a person on a ballot paper then it has to be accepted that they can use their own judgement in that term however much we all know the party label influences the votes.
And defining what is a defection in these situations just seems to open to interpretation or possible abuse anyway. Could someone losing the party whip not count as a defection? And even if not you could have situations where the person has fallen out so badly with the party leadership and fellow members they feel no choice but to resign and it's sort of like a constructive dismissal, Luciana Berger basically said this about leaving Labour (whether you believed her on that or not is another debate that i'm hoping not to re-start!). So a party may fancy forcing a by-election in a safe seat to get rid of someone they see as awkward or cause them financial difficulty if the suggestion about repaying costs came in.
So however immoral situations like that councillor are it has to be allowed for me without any interference. It's not a dictatorship and the terms are about five years at most so the constituents will have a chance to pass judgement.
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Jun 16, 2021 23:22:32 GMT
You are one of the Good Guys CL and I like you and that was intemperate and rude and directed at that whole attitude to politics and not at you 'the person'. However, you are owed an apology and I freely offer it to you. I am out of comfort and out of sorts over a number of personal and national issues. I let it spill this morning. I am over it now, possibly because I do that sort of thing? I write it out of my system and exercise my personal catharsis. I don't let things fester. I expunge them. I still feel that many of you are failing to note the dichotomy between that type of censorious view and the desire to convert on the doorstep? They are really quite incompatible. And I thought we elected a person as a representative? Not a coloured marker for a party on the chessboard. That same person is still there doing the same job to the same degree of care (or incompetence?) as before, about the same local problems and potholes and dog shit. Nothing has changed other than your annoyance. If you want to have a go at things, consider how the party chooses and vets and questions and trains and monitors its candidates! Lesson there for us all. I see no real harm other than internal party carelessness. Perhaps the party should leaflet the electors with an abject apology for putting him up? My main current worry is not incompetence (consider that to be a given) laziness (ditto) or quitting/defecting, it is the mindless support of destroying my whole way of life without a word of protest. Damn party loyalty. I want a bit of representation. No one seems to want to represent the total anti-Lockdowners. Apology accepted. We will agree to disagree on this matter. I am making a rich stew right now, several hours on a low heat in the oven to go and will be having a not too small glass of Glenfiddich to go with it on this, my one evening off in the working week. I expect to nod off in front of the football. Have a good evening all. I hope that the stew was excellent and the large glass of deserved whisky hit the spot. The Italian game was a real treat and exhibition of how to do it to show up how poor France were last night. This Italian team can approach at speed, pass with accuracy and unlike France they can actually finish on target and score goals. Hope you didn't miss it all in a doze? There are very few whiskies I can't take and Glenfiddich is one of them. It always gives me intense hiccoughs. No other whisky does that. And Jura just tastes awful. Odd how individual taste works.
|
|
European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
Posts: 5,666
|
Post by European Lefty on Jun 16, 2021 23:27:25 GMT
I agree with the moral case about defections and by-elections, but as far as legislating and putting laws in place for it I don't think so. If you stick to an electoral system where you're voting on a person on a ballot paper then it has to be accepted that they can use their own judgement in that term however much we all know the party label influences the votes. And defining what is a defection in these situations just seems to open to interpretation or possible abuse anyway. Could someone losing the party whip not count as a defection? And even if not you could have situations where the person has fallen out so badly with the party leadership and fellow members they feel no choice but to resign and it's sort of like a constructive dismissal, Luciana Berger basically said this about leaving Labour (whether you believed her on that or not is another debate that i'm hoping not to re-start!). So a party may fancy forcing a by-election in a safe seat to get rid of someone they see as awkward or cause them financial difficulty if the suggestion about repaying costs came in. So however immoral situations like that councillor are it has to be allowed for me without any interference. It's not a dictatorship and the terms are about five years at most so the constituents will have a chance to pass judgement. It's really nothing to do with the electoral system. I can't think of a single country that uses party list systems where a defector has to stand down, or where other changes to the membership are made to keep the partisan balance of the last election. The public complain when they don't have enough MPs or councillors with individuality or when they perceive them as too unwilling to break the party line, but people then complain when elected members do show their individuality by defecting. This case (where the councillor defected less than two months after re-election) is unfortunate but you can't go changing the rules to fit one incident without having a whole load of unforeseen and unintended side effects
|
|
|
Post by stb12 on Jun 16, 2021 23:30:45 GMT
I agree with the moral case about defections and by-elections, but as far as legislating and putting laws in place for it I don't think so. If you stick to an electoral system where you're voting on a person on a ballot paper then it has to be accepted that they can use their own judgement in that term however much we all know the party label influences the votes. And defining what is a defection in these situations just seems to open to interpretation or possible abuse anyway. Could someone losing the party whip not count as a defection? And even if not you could have situations where the person has fallen out so badly with the party leadership and fellow members they feel no choice but to resign and it's sort of like a constructive dismissal, Luciana Berger basically said this about leaving Labour (whether you believed her on that or not is another debate that i'm hoping not to re-start!). So a party may fancy forcing a by-election in a safe seat to get rid of someone they see as awkward or cause them financial difficulty if the suggestion about repaying costs came in. So however immoral situations like that councillor are it has to be allowed for me without any interference. It's not a dictatorship and the terms are about five years at most so the constituents will have a chance to pass judgement. I t's really nothing to do with the electoral system. I can't think of a single country that uses party list systems where a defector has to stand down, or where other changes to the membership are made to keep the partisan balance of the last election. The public complain when they don't have enough MPs or councillors with individuality or when they perceive them as too unwilling to break the party line, but people then complain when elected members do show their individuality by defecting. This case (where the councillor defected less than two months after re-election) is unfortunate but you can't go changing the rules to fit one incident without having a whole load of unforeseen and unintended side effects Indeed. I suppose I was thinking I could see a better case for it in a party list system but ultimately it would still be open to the same abuses I mentioned and like you say creating knock on effects.
|
|
|
Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Jun 17, 2021 4:46:49 GMT
I wonder if anyone remembers the Communist Party tradition, shared by other far left parties, in which all its elected representative was subject to 'recall'. Any candidates likely to be elected would have to sign an undated letter of resignation, which was kept by the party. If the representative got in, and then stepped out of line, the party would put a date on the letter and send it in. If any party did this, they would never get my vote. The elected representative is my individual representative who happens to be a member of that party. However much parties dislike defections, bringing in contacts that force an elected representative to vote the party line on everything is an anathema to me. If it ever comes in it will in my view be another nail in the coffin of democracy and would be further proof to me that parties prefer power to the democratic process.
|
|
neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
|
Post by neilm on Jun 17, 2021 5:06:36 GMT
It's really nothing to do with the electoral system. I can't think of a single country that uses party list systems where a defector has to stand down, or where other changes to the membership are made to keep the partisan balance of the last election. Not a list but doesn't Zimbabwe have a rule about defecting?
|
|
|
Post by ibfc on Jun 17, 2021 5:13:26 GMT
It's really nothing to do with the electoral system. I can't think of a single country that uses party list systems where a defector has to stand down, or where other changes to the membership are made to keep the partisan balance of the last election. Not a list but doesn't Zimbabwe have a rule about defecting? India does though it does not apply to local government. You have to resign your seat. There’s also a complex disqualification process by which people who don’t resign but vote against their party get disqualified from standing for future elections. It’s led to a lot of sub-optimal outcomes especially as people do vote for individuals (as opposed to the Party) in Indian elections. Speakers from the ruling party have even delayed accepting resignations that could lead to the government losing its majority using spurious arguments.
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Jun 17, 2021 8:33:16 GMT
It's really nothing to do with the electoral system. I can't think of a single country that uses party list systems where a defector has to stand down, or where other changes to the membership are made to keep the partisan balance of the last election. Not a list but doesn't Zimbabwe have a rule about defecting? The 'Leadership think that it is a Capital Idea.
|
|
CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,326
|
Post by CatholicLeft on Jun 17, 2021 8:56:56 GMT
Apology accepted. We will agree to disagree on this matter. I am making a rich stew right now, several hours on a low heat in the oven to go and will be having a not too small glass of Glenfiddich to go with it on this, my one evening off in the working week. I expect to nod off in front of the football. Have a good evening all. I hope that the stew was excellent and the large glass of deserved whisky hit the spot. The Italian game was a real treat and exhibition of how to do it to show up how poor France were last night. This Italian team can approach at speed, pass with accuracy and unlike France they can actually finish on target and score goals. Hope you didn't miss it all in a doze? There are very few whiskies I can't take and Glenfiddich is one of them. It always gives me intense hiccoughs. No other whisky does that. And Jura just tastes awful. Odd how individual taste works. Locatelli was amazing, and what I would 8 give for their goalkeeper - only 22 years old as well. It'll be interesting to see how Italy play against better teams, but I am starting to really enjoy the Euros now. As for whiskies, I can't stant bourbons or rye whiskies, and am not to keen on some of the blends.
|
|
|
Post by timrollpickering on Jun 17, 2021 9:06:39 GMT
I can't think of a single country that uses party list systems where a defector has to stand down, New Zealand has reinstated that legislation.
|
|
|
Post by groznik on Jun 17, 2021 9:27:41 GMT
I can't think of a single country that uses party list systems where a defector has to stand down, New Zealand has reinstated that legislation. Correct. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waka-jumpingPart of the Winston Peters coalition deal in 2017, but, interestingly, Labour vetoed an attempt to repeal it after they won an absolute majority a year ago.
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Jun 17, 2021 10:30:58 GMT
I hope that the stew was excellent and the large glass of deserved whisky hit the spot. The Italian game was a real treat and exhibition of how to do it to show up how poor France were last night. This Italian team can approach at speed, pass with accuracy and unlike France they can actually finish on target and score goals. Hope you didn't miss it all in a doze? There are very few whiskies I can't take and Glenfiddich is one of them. It always gives me intense hiccoughs. No other whisky does that. And Jura just tastes awful. Odd how individual taste works. Locatelli was amazing, and what I would 8 give for their goalkeeper - only 22 years old as well. It'll be interesting to see how Italy play against better teams, but I am starting to really enjoy the Euros now. As for whiskies, I can't stant bourbons or rye whiskies, and am not to keen on some of the blends. I agree on the footie and glad you were awake for it. That goalkeeper was only 17 when first selected for the squad. I don't count anything other than malt ptoduct as being whisky at all. May I recommend an older matured Black Bottle to try as an excellent belended and Campbeltown for a grain whisky. And I do have a bottle of first rate Loch Lomond grain whisky in stock (use) at present. Recommended.
|
|
|
Post by grahammurray on Jun 18, 2021 15:27:35 GMT
Rochdale MBC - Heywood West Jacqui Beswick - Ind to Con (elected as Lab) Alan McCarthy - Ind to Con (elected as Lab and orginally defected to Brexit before sitting as an Independent) According to the press report they are partners
|
|
CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,326
|
Post by CatholicLeft on Jun 18, 2021 21:21:36 GMT
|
|
neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
|
Post by neilm on Jun 19, 2021 18:19:19 GMT
John Bercow has apparently joined the Labour Party.
|
|
|
Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jun 19, 2021 18:26:22 GMT
|
|