nodealbrexiteer
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non aligned favour no deal brexit!
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Jul 26, 2021 20:29:58 GMT
I know it's just a "poll" and has no real significance but does ANYBODY really feel that differently about their friends (or worse yet) their family members, just because they vote differently?? My Dad's been a tory voter all his life and he means the world to me, regardless! My brother is a Trump/QAnon loon but he's still my brother. One of my best friends voted Leave [Lexit really]. I cant believe people would seriously think any less of their loved ones, unless they admitted to voting BNP or Britain First or some odious organisation like that! We just don't discuss it!
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jamie
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Post by jamie on Jul 26, 2021 20:46:15 GMT
I know it's just a "poll" and has no real significance but does ANYBODY really feel that differently about their friends (or worse yet) their family members, just because they vote differently?? My Dad's been a tory voter all his life and he means the world to me, regardless! My brother is a Trump/QAnon loon but he's still my brother. One of my best friends voted Leave [Lexit really]. I cant believe people would seriously think any less of their loved ones, unless they admitted to voting BNP or Britain First or some odious organisation like that! I have multiple people close to me who have done that. Even when people are voting for something as odious as the BNP, they’re usually doing so for understandable reasons and are not unredeemable horrible extremists eg; I know one person who voted BNP and has since voted Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem, UKIP and Green.
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jamie
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Post by jamie on Jul 26, 2021 20:57:49 GMT
My totally unscientific observation is that many Labour supporters tend to view the Conservatives as blatantly beyond the pale and therefore anybody still voting for them must support the negative things they associate with the party. This doesn’t apply to most other parties eg; the Lib Dems, who while the person may not like, they don’t regard as immoral. Conversely, many Conservative supporters seem to regard Labour supporters as naive, inexperienced in life, a bit thick, and/or tribal i.e. not immoral but well intentioned people who have not thought things through.
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European Lefty
Labour
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Post by European Lefty on Jul 26, 2021 22:20:21 GMT
My totally unscientific observation is that many Labour supporters tend to view the Conservatives as blatantly beyond the pale and therefore anybody still voting for them must support the negative things they associate with the party. This doesn’t apply to most other parties eg; the Lib Dems, who while the person may not like, they don’t regard as immoral. Conversely, many Conservative supporters seem to regard Labour supporters as naive, inexperienced in life, a bit thick, and/or tribal i.e. not immoral but well intentioned people who have not thought things through. In my experience, lots of Labour voters associate negative changes (increasing poverty, a wider inequality gap, deteriorating public services etc.) with Tory governments (the actual truth of such claims is beside the point). They tend to assume that Tory voters are aware of the link between Tory governments and these negatives and that anyone continuing to vote Tory either a) doesn't care and is willing to pay that price for lower taxes/kicking out the foreigners or b) actively thinks poverty/inequality/poor services etc. are positives (ie that Tory voters' motives are fundamentally selfish or malicious). I'm less sure on Tory voters, but I think they also associate certain negatives with Labour governments (public debt, high unemployment etc. - again the truth or otherwise of this is irrelevant for now), but I think they tend to assume that Labour voters are largely unaware of these links and continue voting Labour out of naïvety or stupidity rather than malice
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European Lefty
Labour
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Post by European Lefty on Jul 26, 2021 22:23:54 GMT
I know it's just a "poll" and has no real significance but does ANYBODY really feel that differently about their friends (or worse yet) their family members, just because they vote differently?? My Dad's been a tory voter all his life and he means the world to me, regardless! My brother is a Trump/QAnon loon but he's still my brother. One of my best friends voted Leave [Lexit really]. I cant believe people would seriously think any less of their loved ones, unless they admitted to voting BNP or Britain First or some odious organisation like that! I can honestly say that I've never fallen out with anyone over politics, although I wasn't happy when my grandmother said she'd voted LibDem and I admit to thinking a bit less of some of my friends who had supported brexit (though neither of those affected my relationships with any of the people involved). Personally I have always tried to distinguish between despising a political party (which I sometimes do) and despising people who vote for it (which, BNP and their ilk aside) I never would
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Post by justin124 on Jul 26, 2021 23:46:37 GMT
I know it's just a "poll" and has no real significance but does ANYBODY really feel that differently about their friends (or worse yet) their family members, just because they vote differently?? My Dad's been a tory voter all his life and he means the world to me, regardless! My brother is a Trump/QAnon loon but he's still my brother. One of my best friends voted Leave [Lexit really]. I cant believe people would seriously think any less of their loved ones, unless they admitted to voting BNP or Britain First or some odious organisation like that! I can honestly say that I've never fallen out with anyone over politics, although I wasn't happy when my grandmother said she'd voted LibDem and I admit to thinking a bit less of some of my friends who had supported brexit (though neither of those affected my relationships with any of the people involved). Personally I have always tried to distinguish between despising a political party (which I sometimes do) and despising people who vote for it (which, BNP and their ilk aside) I never would I have a difficulty here and do not really agree. I know a lady - mid-70s - who is very kindly and spiritual in outlook. She is actually a Spiritual Healer - for what that is worth. She grew up in North London in a Labour voting family in Wood Green. Whilst she often votes LD at local elections, she - and her two older siblings - invariably vote Tory at GEs. I feel strongly inclined to point out to her that during her early years , the Tory Party of Eden, MacMillan, Douglas-Home & Heath had a core of decency which might have justified support. It had not become 'the nasty party' it became under Thatcher and later. It seems odd to me that the nastier the Tories became the more inclined she has been to vote for them.! I find such behaviour impossible to reconcile with her spiritual outlook - and indeed it invites the charge of humbug and hypocrisy. I am almost minded to cite to her the example of people in early 1930s Germany who adopted a caring attitude to elderly Jewish neighbours living close by who needed support - yet still found reasons to justify voting for Adolf Hitler at the Reichstag elections.
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European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
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Post by European Lefty on Jul 27, 2021 0:14:16 GMT
I can honestly say that I've never fallen out with anyone over politics, although I wasn't happy when my grandmother said she'd voted LibDem and I admit to thinking a bit less of some of my friends who had supported brexit (though neither of those affected my relationships with any of the people involved). Personally I have always tried to distinguish between despising a political party (which I sometimes do) and despising people who vote for it (which, BNP and their ilk aside) I never would I have a difficulty here and do not really agree. I know a lady - mid-70s - who is very kindly and spiritual in outlook. She is actually a Spiritual Healer - for what that is worth. She grew up in North London in a Labour voting family in Wood Green. Whilst she often votes LD at local elections, she - and her two older siblings - invariably vote Tory at GEs. I feel strongly inclined to point out to her that during her early years , the Tory Party of Eden, MacMillan, Douglas-Home & Heath had a core of decency which might have justified support. It had not become 'the nasty party' it became under Thatcher and later. It seems odd to me that the nastier the Tories became the more inclined she has been to vote for them.! I find such behaviour impossible to reconcile with her spiritual outlook - and indeed it invites the charge of humbug and hypocrisy. I am almost minded to cite to her the example of people in early 1930s Germany who adopted a caring attitude to elderly Jewish neighbours living close by who needed support - yet still found reasons to justify voting for Adolf Hitler at the Reichstag elections. Please don't. Nazi comparisons are never appropriate. Even when they are appropriate, they aren't
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cj
Socialist
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Post by cj on Jul 27, 2021 0:51:13 GMT
Quite a difference to be discounted as a polling blip. Unsurprising results that show Conservative voters more likely to lie
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Post by justin124 on Jul 27, 2021 0:58:57 GMT
I have a difficulty here and do not really agree. I know a lady - mid-70s - who is very kindly and spiritual in outlook. She is actually a Spiritual Healer - for what that is worth. She grew up in North London in a Labour voting family in Wood Green. Whilst she often votes LD at local elections, she - and her two older siblings - invariably vote Tory at GEs. I feel strongly inclined to point out to her that during her early years , the Tory Party of Eden, MacMillan, Douglas-Home & Heath had a core of decency which might have justified support. It had not become 'the nasty party' it became under Thatcher and later. It seems odd to me that the nastier the Tories became the more inclined she has been to vote for them.! I find such behaviour impossible to reconcile with her spiritual outlook - and indeed it invites the charge of humbug and hypocrisy. I am almost minded to cite to her the example of people in early 1930s Germany who adopted a caring attitude to elderly Jewish neighbours living close by who needed support - yet still found reasons to justify voting for Adolf Hitler at the Reichstag elections. Please don't. Nazi comparisons are never appropriate. Even when they are appropriate, they aren't At one level I can understand why you say that, but would add that almost certainly the vast majority of those who voted NSDAP in the 1932 and 1933 elections did not support the horrors which lay in store.
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Post by Andrew_S on Jul 27, 2021 1:54:17 GMT
Please don't. Nazi comparisons are never appropriate. Even when they are appropriate, they aren't At one level I can understand why you say that, but would add that almost certainly the vast majority of those who voted NSDAP in the 1932 and 1933 elections did not support the horrors which lay in store. The whole "evil Tories" thing probably costs Labour votes at most elections, because swing voters who consider voting for both parties will inevitably be put off by it.
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 27, 2021 8:57:25 GMT
It's not really a surprise though, is it? The Tories have been in power for years and taking the decisions that affect folks' lives, so voting Tory affects people. Similarly voting Leave resulted in an effect which has - in many folks' view - damaged their lives. Voting labour since 2005 has made little difference to people's lives, because they haven't been in power as a result since 2010, over a decade ago. I see that to be a very effective comment as to the practicalities of being in a long-term period of Conservative office if not always of control. So the Conservative supporters are more relaxed about opponents and opposition because they witness it against a background of general success over GEs, local government, and the Brexit disposition; whereas Labour supporteres are in a political depression over policy, direction, leadership, focus and prospects in general. Against such a lowering background and sore experience it seems just too much that people of their their own sort should so far forget themselves and general decency as to vote for the rancid enemy, and thus get treated as fellow travellers and even unpersons. I think there were elements of that during the Blair years for Conservatives, but to a considerably lesser extent? I was off-scene in the Highlands of Scotland and Italy during all of it. That is what many Conservatives tend to do in adversity. They look to their gardens, personal development, making money, educating their children, doing up their property, going abroad and promoting their careers. They don't tend to agonize too much over the shorter term, nor to concern themselves with the positioning of friends and family. My friends are predominently of the left but most family of the solid right.
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Post by islington on Jul 27, 2021 10:11:59 GMT
Quite a difference to be discounted as a polling blip. Unsurprising results that show Conservative voters more likely to lie Quite right, cj - if there's a piece of evidence that doesn't fit your preconceptions, dismiss the evidence.
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Post by islington on Jul 27, 2021 10:18:53 GMT
I can honestly say that I've never fallen out with anyone over politics, although I wasn't happy when my grandmother said she'd voted LibDem and I admit to thinking a bit less of some of my friends who had supported brexit (though neither of those affected my relationships with any of the people involved). Personally I have always tried to distinguish between despising a political party (which I sometimes do) and despising people who vote for it (which, BNP and their ilk aside) I never would I have a difficulty here and do not really agree. I know a lady - mid-70s - who is very kindly and spiritual in outlook. She is actually a Spiritual Healer - for what that is worth. She grew up in North London in a Labour voting family in Wood Green. Whilst she often votes LD at local elections, she - and her two older siblings - invariably vote Tory at GEs. I feel strongly inclined to point out to her that during her early years , the Tory Party of Eden, MacMillan, Douglas-Home & Heath had a core of decency which might have justified support. It had not become 'the nasty party' it became under Thatcher and later. It seems odd to me that the nastier the Tories became the more inclined she has been to vote for them.! I find such behaviour impossible to reconcile with her spiritual outlook - and indeed it invites the charge of humbug and hypocrisy. Have you tried asking her?
You might be surprised. I can't speak for her, obviously, but I think a lot of Tories would readily agree that the intention of Labour policies is to help the poor, but would say that they don't necessarily achieve that result and sometimes do more harm than good. You may or may not agree with that assessment, but if that view is sincerely held it's a perfectly rational and totally non-evil reason for not voting Labour.
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Post by justin124 on Jul 27, 2021 12:07:56 GMT
I have a difficulty here and do not really agree. I know a lady - mid-70s - who is very kindly and spiritual in outlook. She is actually a Spiritual Healer - for what that is worth. She grew up in North London in a Labour voting family in Wood Green. Whilst she often votes LD at local elections, she - and her two older siblings - invariably vote Tory at GEs. I feel strongly inclined to point out to her that during her early years , the Tory Party of Eden, MacMillan, Douglas-Home & Heath had a core of decency which might have justified support. It had not become 'the nasty party' it became under Thatcher and later. It seems odd to me that the nastier the Tories became the more inclined she has been to vote for them.! I find such behaviour impossible to reconcile with her spiritual outlook - and indeed it invites the charge of humbug and hypocrisy. Have you tried asking her? You might be surprised. I can't speak for her, obviously, but I think a lot of Tories would readily agree that the intention of Labour policies is to help the poor, but would say that they don't necessarily achieve that result and sometimes do more harm than good. You may or may not agree with that assessment, but if that view is sincerely held it's a perfectly rational and totally non-evil reason for not voting Labour.
She is not a political animal in the sense that I am. I don't necessarily expect her to vote Labour - indeed I do not always do so myself having voted Green in 2019 and 2010. It is more a case of not understanding why she would vote Tory - given her spiritual outlook and the fact that she did not vote that way back in the days of Ted Heath etc. She suggested that in 2019 the Tories appeared to offer her 'the best package' which,given her age, might imply that she was influenced by the 'triple lock' for pensioners etc. There again , such an attitude of material selfishness appears at odds with the caring ,spiritual personna she presents to the world.Frankly she seems blind to the pain and suffering which Tory policies could inflict on others. Very much a case of 'I am all right, Jack!'
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Post by islington on Jul 27, 2021 12:58:15 GMT
But implied in what you are saying is the assumption that Labour policies will benefit (and Tory policies disbenefit) the less well-off.
All I'm saying is that this assumption is contestable and it's possible to put forward a perfectly rational case against it.
And don't you think that the trend of this conversation supports what I said a little way upthread?
"But a lot of Labour supporters - I am not saying all of them, but a large proportion - simply have no idea why anyone would ever vote Tory. It baffles them. And because there is (in their view) no reasonable explanation for this behaviour, they tend to attribute it to the worst possible reasons of selfishness or stupidity - hence the negative feelings."
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 27, 2021 13:42:12 GMT
Quite a difference to be discounted as a polling blip. Unsurprising results that show Conservative voters more likely to lie Heh, that isn't the whole truth but its likely not a totally insignificant factor either. Certainly in the aftermath of the 2017 GE shock, I recall a fair amount of rightist sneering that almost everybody who voted Labour then had just done so for "free stuff".
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cj
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Post by cj on Jul 27, 2021 14:28:27 GMT
Unsurprising results that show Conservative voters more likely to lie Heh, that isn't the whole truth but its likely not a totally insignificant factor either. Certainly in the aftermath of the 2017 GE shock, I recall a fair amount of rightist sneering that almost everybody who voted Labour then had just done so for "free stuff". Well of course its not, but anyone who thinks folks don't lie is a liar or naive in extremis, especially when it is less about objective information than subjective information about how they perceive themselves and how others will perceive them.
But you know me I'd rather make a post in humour that signposts a point than the admin of typing
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cj
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Post by cj on Jul 27, 2021 14:37:30 GMT
Unsurprising results that show Conservative voters more likely to lie Quite right, cj - if there's a piece of evidence that doesn't fit your preconceptions, dismiss the evidence. I don't know if you don't 'get me' or are just rather dour.
But it is more a piece of information really than evidence isn't it? Regardless of numbers surveyed and methodology you are wiggling through variables of how a person feels (or says they would feel) about others based on their declaration of information.
If this information is true, why are there apparently 'shy Tories' when asked about their voting intentions if they are more honest and less than judgemental than Labour voters, I mean excluding that they are concerned how they will be viewed by the judgemental majority Labour supporting populace who obviously are in the majority as seen by the predomination of Labour Governments in our country...
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Post by carlton43 on Jul 27, 2021 15:25:58 GMT
Have you tried asking her? You might be surprised. I can't speak for her, obviously, but I think a lot of Tories would readily agree that the intention of Labour policies is to help the poor, but would say that they don't necessarily achieve that result and sometimes do more harm than good. You may or may not agree with that assessment, but if that view is sincerely held it's a perfectly rational and totally non-evil reason for not voting Labour.
She is not a political animal in the sense that I am. I don't necessarily expect her to vote Labour - indeed I do not always do so myself having voted Green in 2019 and 2010. It is more a case of not understanding why she would vote Tory - given her spiritual outlook and the fact that she did not vote that way back in the days of Ted Heath etc. She suggested that in 2019 the Tories appeared to offer her 'the best package' which,given her age, might imply that she was influenced by the 'triple lock' for pensioners etc. There again , such an attitude of material selfishness appears at odds with the caring ,spiritual personna she presents to the world.Frankly she seems blind to the pain and suffering which Tory policies could inflict on others. Very much a case of 'I am all right, Jack!' What 'pain and suffering' are our 'policies ...inflicting on others'? Be specific. IMO we are taxing shedloads of cash off the small useful section of society to give to claimants and the NHS and educations, etc. So what are we 'inflicting' then? And how do Labour not 'inflict' on others? Why are they different? Provide examples.
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Post by observer on Jul 27, 2021 21:08:06 GMT
It seems that Labour voters are less understanding of other people thinking and voting differently. There´s actually a class and age divide among Labour supporters. The more traditional Labour voters are generally quite laid back about people voting differently. It is the younger, middle-class Labour voters, imbued in identity politics at school and college, who genuinely don´t understand other people. They see all opponents as ´racists´, sexists, bigots etc. The more traditional Labour voters are very good people - although I´m no longer one of them.
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