polupolu
Lib Dem
Liberal (Democrat). Socially Liberal, Economically Keynesian.
Posts: 1,165
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Post by polupolu on Oct 3, 2022 9:23:19 GMT
Agreed they undermine our representative democracy in the UK. We are a parliamentary democracy, which referendums cut across. They especially undermine parliamentary democracy because politicians use them as an cop out to making the hard decisions themselves.
If referendums are an integrated part of the democratic system, then they can work. In the UK they aren't so it's best not to have them ever. Its not feasible in a modern democracy to not have referendums on constitutional issues. Its clear that politicians at the very least should not be making decisions on their own pay (too low to the countries detriment), the way they are elected and the like. Consitiutional issues are arguably the worst things to leave to referendums. They tend to involve complex arguments in terms of the interplay between different effects and proposals and are not well suited to yes/no binary decisions. Though I think there is a case for a referendum to accept or reject a written constitution as recently happened in Chile.
I undestand that what the Italians had at one point (I don't know if they still do), is that referendums could strike down legislation. That seems more sensible, as the results of the legislation would be known and people would know what they were voting for or against.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2022 9:25:08 GMT
Ah so in that case, introduce STV, run an election on it, and then hold a referendum.
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Post by stb12 on Oct 3, 2022 9:28:12 GMT
The Greek monarchy referendum was after it had already been abolished, albeit there was a military coup involved initially there
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Post by greatkingrat on Oct 3, 2022 9:28:21 GMT
I think referendums are justified for issues that a new government couldn't easily reverse, eg EU withdrawal, Scottish independence etc.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2022 9:34:16 GMT
The Greek monarchy referendum was after it had already been abolished, albeit there was a military coup involved initially there Ah well have a military coup here....
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Post by islington on Oct 3, 2022 9:41:49 GMT
No voting system is perfect. FPTP has created a monster, we know that. Safe seats have become impossible for rival parties to gain, or even be competitive in. Parties can get `too good' overall results from terrible national vote share. It's clear and obvious and easy to understand, though it's also lacking in proportionality, it centres votes which matters to a tiny disproportionate clump of seats, and allows parties to ignore great swathes of the country because victory is guaranteed. David Boothroyd once asked on here why parliament needs to be proportional. I have always believed it must be because we've hundreds of years of evidence of the damage done to politics by the entrenched polarisation of binary voting. We're a complex country with various political views. The Commons needs to reflect that. Too right.
What chance have Labour in places like Hove or Canterbury, or the Tories in Mansfield or Stoke?
Oh, er ... Hang on a minute ...
The fact is that there's no such thing as a safe seat. There's such a thing as a seat with a big majority but that just means it's got a big majority, it doesn't mean it's safe.
I agree with the comment that no system is perfect, however. I will concede that even FPTP, which (to my mind) is by far the least bad, still has its flaws.
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Max
Labour
Posts: 201
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Post by Max on Oct 3, 2022 11:06:16 GMT
So still no parliamentary defections to discuss then...?
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nodealbrexiteer
Forum Regular
non aligned favour no deal brexit!
Posts: 4,077
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Post by nodealbrexiteer on Oct 3, 2022 11:22:27 GMT
So still no parliamentary defections to discuss then...? Brilliant avatar by the way!
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,813
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 3, 2022 11:31:08 GMT
So still no parliamentary defections to discuss then...? I would be amazed if both Labour and LibDems aren't in "serious contact" with certain Tory MPs as we speak.
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Post by kevinf on Oct 3, 2022 15:45:39 GMT
So still no parliamentary defections to discuss then...? I would be amazed if both Labour and LibDems aren't in "serious contact" with certain Tory MPs as we speak. I think anyone seriously thinking of defecting would have announced at the relevant party conference, so they get adulation as well as publicity.
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Oct 3, 2022 15:50:14 GMT
I would be amazed if both Labour and LibDems aren't in "serious contact" with certain Tory MPs as we speak. I think anyone seriously thinking of defecting would have announced at the relevant party conference, so they get adulation as well as publicity. Actually I suspect anyone for whom Kwarteng’s budget by abt other name was the penultimate straw might have been tempted to wait to see if today’s climbdown was forthcoming, and what happens next. I suspect the real tipping point will be if they have to go out and defend further benefit and public service cuts after the November whatever it’s going to be called - budget, financial statement, or suicide note.
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Post by timrollpickering on Oct 4, 2022 9:26:55 GMT
Surely the strongest argument against referenda is that giving people a binary choice to support "A" or "B" turns half the population against the other half, ala Brexit. I have not noticed my borough bitterly divided between elected mayors and committee structures despite a referendum last year.
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Post by johnloony on Oct 5, 2022 1:03:57 GMT
Surely the strongest argument against referenda is that giving people a binary choice to support "A" or "B" turns half the population against the other half, ala Brexit. I have not noticed my borough bitterly divided between elected mayors and committee structures despite a referendum last year. After we had a referendum in Croydon a year ago, there was a war of attrition between the Directly Elected Mayor faction (17%j and the Status Quo faction (4%) in which the two sides spent about 6 weeks hitting each other on the head with cucumbers, but then they combined forces and started a joint campaign of bombarding the renegade deviants of the Didn’t Vote tendency (79%) with dollops of frozen custard.
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Post by tonyhill on Oct 5, 2022 5:44:18 GMT
That might have been an interesting comment if it had been written in a comprehensible manner rather than loonyese.
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YL
Non-Aligned
Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
Posts: 4,369
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Post by YL on Oct 7, 2022 14:54:00 GMT
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,565
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 7, 2022 14:56:32 GMT
One of the real wankers in parliament. I'm astonished it's taken this long to be honest...
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CatholicLeft
Labour
2032 posts until I was "accidentally" deleted.
Posts: 6,324
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Post by CatholicLeft on Oct 7, 2022 14:59:51 GMT
I assume he loses his ministerial post as well .
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Oct 7, 2022 15:28:32 GMT
I assume he loses his ministerial post as well . Yes, according to Downing Street: “Following a complaint of serious misconduct, the prime minister has asked Conor Burns MP to leave the government with immediate effect. The prime minister took direct action on being informed of this allegation and is clear that all ministers should maintain the high standards of behaviour – as the public rightly expects.”
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2022 15:49:19 GMT
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on Oct 7, 2022 16:19:09 GMT
How has it taken this long? It isn't like his behaviour isn't well known.
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