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Post by timrollpickering on Sept 30, 2022 10:38:41 GMT
Or even "electoral reform - yes or no?" (isn't that basically what New Zealand did) No. They had three questions across two separate referendums. The first was two questions - a non-binding "should the system change?" vote that could shut the whole process down and a "which of these four alternatives do you prefer?" vote. The second put FPTP up against the preferred option. The whole system was set out in advance, no revotes added after "wrong" results. The only notable flaw was the promise of an option to rethink after a few elections took longer to happen due to multiple changes of government in the interim.
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Post by No Offence Alan on Sept 30, 2022 10:47:49 GMT
In the coalition referendum on AV, the question on the card was largely ignored in the campaign. It became a proxy for "how hard do you want to kick Nick Clegg", and the result was "quite hard". Any future change should be decided by the Commons itself and be implemented without a referendum, as previous changes to systems at other levels of government have been. And how would your second paragraph there translate in a Scottish independence or NI border context?
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Post by timrollpickering on Sept 30, 2022 10:50:20 GMT
The AV referendum could have been a stepping stone to real reform. It was hijacked by the exact same cabal of Establishment flunkies and biased media types as the Brexit referendum, I was not aware Vote Leave was full of ex Yes2AVers. If anything Eurosceptics were persona non grata around the campaign. Look how little use was made of Nigel Farage even though he had strong appeal amongst Yes's weakest demographic. You should have looked closer for The Establishment:
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
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Post by timmullen1 on Sept 30, 2022 10:59:12 GMT
Or even "electoral reform - yes or no?" (isn't that basically what New Zealand did) Not exactly, the 2011 referendum had two questions - retain MMP or switch to an alternative, then four options of alternative systems, so a bit like the California gubernatorial recall - do you want to recall Gavin Newsom yes or no and if yes, who from this list do you want to replace him. The NZ Electoral Commission produced this video guide:
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ricmk
Lib Dem
Posts: 2,282
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Post by ricmk on Sept 30, 2022 20:41:46 GMT
Obviously the question at any referendum should be:
“Should the UK remain with FPTP or change from FPTP?”
And then if change wins, the winning side get to tell the country what they want to do, and that it’s what all change voters demanded in their vote.
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Post by grahammurray on Sept 30, 2022 21:22:43 GMT
Obviously the question at any referendum should be: “Should the UK remain with FPTP or change from FPTP?” And then if change wins, the winning side get to tell the country what they want to do, and that it’s what all change voters demanded in their vote. Yep. Them's the rules.
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peterl
Green
Monarchic Technocratic Localist
Posts: 8,047
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Post by peterl on Sept 30, 2022 22:03:44 GMT
Obviously the question at any referendum should be: “Should the UK remain with FPTP or change from FPTP?” And then if change wins, the winning side get to tell the country what they want to do, and that it’s what all change voters demanded in their vote. If we vote to "leave" FPTP, can we then have a "people's vote" and try again?
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Post by greatkingrat on Sept 30, 2022 22:22:31 GMT
Clearly any referendum on PR should be held using PR rather than FPTP. So if 40% of people vote for FPTP, then 40% of elections should be held under FPTP.
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Post by mattbewilson on Sept 30, 2022 23:06:35 GMT
Clearly any referendum on PR should be held using PR rather than FPTP. So if 40% of people vote for FPTP, then 40% of elections should be held under FPTP. so AMS?
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neilm
Non-Aligned
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Post by neilm on Oct 1, 2022 0:36:55 GMT
you really are quite scarred by the result of the referendums you demanded. It comes down to competency to implement change. The Commons is in charge of its own electoral arrangements; the previous referendum was technically entirely unnecessary, though politically unavoidable due to the disagreements between the coalition parties. In the event of agreement within the Commons about change, that change should go ahead. I can't see that backfiring, not at all.
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Post by aargauer on Oct 1, 2022 7:25:29 GMT
Obviously the question at any referendum should be: “Should the UK remain with FPTP or change from FPTP?” And then if change wins, the winning side get to tell the country what they want to do, and that it’s what all change voters demanded in their vote. That would be a hard referendum for me to vote on. I don't really like FPTP, but really *really* dislike preferential voting, which is completely unnecessary if you already have PR.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 1, 2022 11:49:27 GMT
Realistically, any change in our GE voting system has to involve a referendum - and I don't even like referendums.
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Post by BossMan on Oct 1, 2022 12:30:19 GMT
Realistically, any change in our GE voting system has to involve a referendum - and I don't even like referendums. Admittedly I don't really see why that ought to be the case, even with the AV Referendum. If I were in that position of power and wanted to change how the Commons is elected from FPTP to, for example, MMP/AMS (my personal preference, with open lists of course), I'd just legislate for it. I'd reserve referenda for the ratification of much deeper constitutional change.
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Post by stb12 on Oct 1, 2022 13:01:09 GMT
I dislike referendums on principle after 2014 and 2016 so if it’s to be done would have to be legislation for me
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Post by johnloony on Oct 1, 2022 13:12:10 GMT
Realistically, any change in our GE voting system has to involve a referendum - and I don't even like referendums. Admittedly I don't really see why that ought to be the case, even with the AV Referendum. If I were in that position of power and wanted to change how the Commons is elected from FPTP to, for example, MMP/AMS (my personal preference, with open lists of course), I'd just legislate for it. I'd reserve referenda for the ratification of much deeper constitutional change. Depends on the circumstances. If a political party has a specific manifesto commitment to introducing a specific electoral system (eg AMS) then it could legislate directly. (For example, if UKIP had won a general election it would have legislated directly for the UK to leave the EU, without faffing about with a referendum. Or if the Lib Dems won a general election, they would introduce STV straight away because everybody knows that that it what they have always wanted.) But the political reality is that a future Labour government would be likely to be split on the issue, with some wanting AMS, some wanting STV, some wanting to keep FPTP, and a lot undecided. So it would make sense to have a referendum to get a clear mandate and to force the issue (ie force reluctant backbench MPs to enact it).
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Post by aargauer on Oct 1, 2022 13:21:43 GMT
Obviously the question at any referendum should be: “Should the UK remain with FPTP or change from FPTP?” And then if change wins, the winning side get to tell the country what they want to do, and that it’s what all change voters demanded in their vote. Were that to happen a vote between two different systems could be offered - say AV and regular D'Hondt.
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Post by aargauer on Oct 1, 2022 13:24:22 GMT
Realistically, any change in our GE voting system has to involve a referendum - and I don't even like referendums. Admittedly I don't really see why that ought to be the case, even with the AV Referendum. If I were in that position of power and wanted to change how the Commons is elected from FPTP to, for example, MMP/AMS (my personal preference, with open lists of course), I'd just legislate for it. I'd reserve referenda for the ratification of much deeper constitutional change. I find it terrifying that in principle the legislature can choose how it is elected. self-policing is never good. De-sovereignise Parliament
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Post by mattbewilson on Oct 1, 2022 13:24:51 GMT
Obviously the question at any referendum should be: “Should the UK remain with FPTP or change from FPTP?” And then if change wins, the winning side get to tell the country what they want to do, and that it’s what all change voters demanded in their vote. Were that to happen a vote between two different systems could be offered - say AV and regular D'Hondt. neither thanks
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Post by aargauer on Oct 1, 2022 13:30:55 GMT
Were that to happen a vote between two different systems could be offered - say AV and regular D'Hondt. neither thanks Then tough cheese for losing the 1st round! It is true that a referendum question should spell out the alternative to avoid this mess.
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Post by grahammurray on Oct 1, 2022 13:41:45 GMT
Obviously the question at any referendum should be: “Should the UK remain with FPTP or change from FPTP?” And then if change wins, the winning side get to tell the country what they want to do, and that it’s what all change voters demanded in their vote. Were that to happen a vote between two different systems could be offered - say AV and regular D'Hondt. Are you trying to make a case for a second referendum?
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