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YouGov
Aug 10, 2020 11:27:08 GMT
Post by greenchristian on Aug 10, 2020 11:27:08 GMT
I understand its nothing like WW2 thats a false comparison. I didn't mean to imply that the situations were entirely similar. But it is the most recent example of the opposition parties all agreeing with the general direction of government policy on the biggest issue of the day. And the motivations in both cases were similar. In both cases, the motivations for this approach were similar, and it's difficult to see how the one case is an example of the opposition parties being pointless without implying that the other case is too. That's all I was trying to say with that comparison. If you'd put your point like this originally I might not have disagreed with you. But the way you wrote it came across as much more extreme than this.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Aug 10, 2020 15:06:42 GMT
You can't be saying there is no point in opposition parties advocating anything different from the government on covid policy or any other policy because there is no election for 9 months, can you? It seems to me you are and that you are happy with the current equivalent of one party dictat that is currently being imposed upon us from Westminster. I really do find this astounding but people's views often are often radically different. Ce la vie, each to their own Apologies, I had not seen this or some of your other replies. On reflection, I think you have more of a case than I at first granted - there are non-Covid issues such as Jenrick, some dodgy commissioning decisions, the honours list, some bills affecting potential effects of trade deals on UK sectors which the govt is getting a bit of a free ride on. It is valid to criticise the opposition for not making more of a stink and perhaps going more negative. (It follows that any govt lead in the polls reflects where the govt is while the opposition is quiet and may not reflect what happens in a fight) I don't believe the opposition should be picking a major fight with the govt over its broad approach to Covid as opposed to shambolic implementation. But if they had I don't think the result would have been a reduction in govt support, I think the govt would have successfully painted opposition parties as nay-saying whingers and fruitcakes and cleaned up in the polls. Nor do I think they can afford a heads-on fight over Brexit - again the approach has to be to pick apart incompetent delivery rather than object to the whole policy. I would like to see a liberal but not libertarian approach to civil liberties expressed more clearly though my worst fears of mob-rule and loony police forces have receded a lot. I absolutely do not want a contrarian libertarian approach just for the sake of "opposing" and if there is scope for that I think it has to be within Farageism and is a political dead end.Overall I think you discount too heavily the extent to which the govt controls the agenda, firstly through sheer power (especially with a rebellion-busting majority) and secondly due to the media agenda still being largely set by print newspapers with significant pro-govt bias. There is also the issue that the LDs are in a leadership election while Labour is still processing the result of its own one.
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YouGov
Aug 10, 2020 15:13:17 GMT
Post by yellowperil on Aug 10, 2020 15:13:17 GMT
You can't be saying there is no point in opposition parties advocating anything different from the government on covid policy or any other policy because there is no election for 9 months, can you? It seems to me you are and that you are happy with the current equivalent of one party dictat that is currently being imposed upon us from Westminster. I really do find this astounding but people's views often are often radically different. Ce la vie, each to their own Apologies, I had not seen this or some of your other replies. On reflection, I think you have more of a case than I at first granted - there are non-Covid issues such as Jenrick, some dodgy commissioning decisions, the honours list, some bills affecting potential effects of trade deals on UK sectors which the govt is getting a bit of a free ride on. It is valid to criticise the opposition for not making more of a stink and perhaps going more negative. (It follows that any govt lead in the polls reflects where the govt is while the opposition is quiet and may not reflect what happens in a fight) I don't believe the opposition should be picking a major fight with the govt over its broad approach to Covid as opposed to shambolic implementation. But if they had I don't think the result would have been a reduction in govt support, I think the govt would have successfully painted opposition parties as nay-saying whingers and fruitcakes and cleaned up in the polls. Nor do I think they can afford a heads-on fight over Brexit - again the approach has to be to pick apart incompetent delivery rather than object to the whole policy. I would like to see a liberal but not libertarian approach to civil liberties expressed more clearly though my worst fears of mob-rule and loony police forces have receded a lot. I absolutely do not want a contrarian libertarian approach just for the sake of "opposing" and if there is scope for that I think it has to be within Farageism and is a political dead end.Overall I think you discount too heavily the extent to which the govt controls the agenda, firstly through sheer power (especially with a rebellion-busting majority) and secondly due to the media agenda still being largely set by print newspapers with significant pro-govt bias. There is also the issue that the LDs are in a leadership election while Labour is still processing the result of its own one. I really really do like that answer. You do have the knack of saying exactly what I would have likde to say if I could find the words.
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Aug 10, 2020 16:14:23 GMT
Apologies, I had not seen this or some of your other replies. On reflection, I think you have more of a case than I at first granted - there are non-Covid issues such as Jenrick, some dodgy commissioning decisions, the honours list, some bills affecting potential effects of trade deals on UK sectors which the govt is getting a bit of a free ride on. It is valid to criticise the opposition for not making more of a stink and perhaps going more negative. (It follows that any govt lead in the polls reflects where the govt is while the opposition is quiet and may not reflect what happens in a fight) I don't believe the opposition should be picking a major fight with the govt over its broad approach to Covid as opposed to shambolic implementation. But if they had I don't think the result would have been a reduction in govt support, I think the govt would have successfully painted opposition parties as nay-saying whingers and fruitcakes and cleaned up in the polls. Nor do I think they can afford a heads-on fight over Brexit - again the approach has to be to pick apart incompetent delivery rather than object to the whole policy. I would like to see a liberal but not libertarian approach to civil liberties expressed more clearly though my worst fears of mob-rule and loony police forces have receded a lot. I absolutely do not want a contrarian libertarian approach just for the sake of "opposing" and if there is scope for that I think it has to be within Farageism and is a political dead end.Overall I think you discount too heavily the extent to which the govt controls the agenda, firstly through sheer power (especially with a rebellion-busting majority) and secondly due to the media agenda still being largely set by print newspapers with significant pro-govt bias. There is also the issue that the LDs are in a leadership election while Labour is still processing the result of its own one. I really really do like that answer. You do have the knack of saying exactly what I would have likde to say if I could find the words. Is it not fair to give credit for seeking to amend, and ultimately opposing at Third Reading, the Trade Bill, seeking to amend the Domestic Abuse Bill and the Finance Bill, voting against, and seeking to amend, the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination Bill, voting against the Agriculture Bill at Third Reading, even on internal House affairs, trying to amend membership of the Liaison Committee? It seems that Labour (along with everybody but the DUP) has opposed or tried to amend every Bill this year. Does this not count as opposition? Precisely what more could they be doing?
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YouGov
Aug 10, 2020 18:30:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by greatkingrat on Aug 10, 2020 18:30:35 GMT
Every opposition proposes amendments to all but the most uncontroversial government bills - that is nothing special.
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timmullen1
Labour
Closing account as BossMan declines to respond to messages seeking support.
Posts: 11,823
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Post by timmullen1 on Aug 10, 2020 18:43:17 GMT
Every opposition proposes amendments to all but the most uncontroversial government bills - that is nothing special. I don’t disagree, but a) they’re opposition, which apparently hasn’t been taking place, Labour are simply acquiescing in anything Johnson wants; and b) some of these were pretty meaningful, particularly keeping the NHS out of future trade negotiations with the US and maintaining current food hygiene standards in trade negotiations (chlorinated chicken), and allowing care workers automatic right to remain in the Immigration Bill. If they don’t constitute opposition, if they’re complicit in a one party state as was claimed, what is opposition?
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 10, 2020 20:51:32 GMT
Well I guess it all boils down to me thinking the opposition parties could be doing more to force a constructive agenda on 19, which I know many on here disagree with. That's life, surprisingly people often seem to disagree with me on many matters. 🙂
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Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
Posts: 11,351
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Post by Tony Otim on Aug 11, 2020 20:40:29 GMT
That's life, surprisingly people often seem to disagree with me on many matters. 🙂 No we don't.... 😉
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YouGov
Aug 19, 2020 17:10:29 GMT
Post by Andrew_S on Aug 19, 2020 17:10:29 GMT
Interesting that the Brexit Party are on 4% practically without campaigning.
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YouGov
Aug 19, 2020 17:18:39 GMT
Post by manchesterman on Aug 19, 2020 17:18:39 GMT
Also they have a PM poll which puts Starmer 4pts ahead of Johnson...
..whilst SavantaComRes have published a best PM poll showing Johnson with a 13pt lead!
Are these polls just meaningless to the public so they just say anything or are there serious flaws in their methodologies?
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YouGov
Aug 19, 2020 17:26:24 GMT
Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 19, 2020 17:26:24 GMT
I think there may be differences in the wording of the 'Best PM' question which have a big effect on the result.
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Jack
Reform Party
Posts: 8,140
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YouGov
Aug 19, 2020 18:55:23 GMT
Post by Jack on Aug 19, 2020 18:55:23 GMT
Interesting that the Brexit Party are on 4% practically without campaigning. Probably just due to dissatisfaction with the main parties.
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johng
Labour
Posts: 4,523
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YouGov
Aug 19, 2020 19:04:21 GMT
Post by johng on Aug 19, 2020 19:04:21 GMT
Interesting that the Brexit Party are on 4% practically without campaigning. Probably just due to dissatisfaction with the main parties.
That and I think any Farage vehicle would get a few percentage points.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,657
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YouGov
Aug 20, 2020 11:49:02 GMT
Post by The Bishop on Aug 20, 2020 11:49:02 GMT
I think there may be differences in the wording of the 'Best PM' question which have a big effect on the result. So what exactly are these differences (a question I think I may have asked before)?
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 20, 2020 12:13:55 GMT
YouGov: "Which of the following do you think would make the best Prime Minister?" Survation: "Which of the following party leaders do you think would make the best Prime Minister?" ComRes: "Which of the following politicians do you think would make the best Prime Minister?" Redfield and Wilton: "At this moment, which of the following individuals do you think would be the better Prime Minister for the United Kingdom?"
IPSOS Mori seems only to ask individual ratings and not do the choice of PM.
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polupolu
Lib Dem
Liberal (Democrat). Socially Liberal, Economically Keynesian.
Posts: 1,165
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YouGov
Aug 20, 2020 12:18:18 GMT
Post by polupolu on Aug 20, 2020 12:18:18 GMT
I wonder why survation and comres think that need the words "party leaders" and "politicians" when asking for best PM rating.
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YouGov
Aug 20, 2020 13:14:22 GMT
Post by owainsutton on Aug 20, 2020 13:14:22 GMT
I wonder why survation and comres think that need the words "party leaders" and "politicians" when asking for best PM rating. Some possible factors: - Knowing that not all of the public recognise names as being a party leader without prompting, - Inclusion of non-party leaders in the list, even if those results are excluded from the ensuing press release, - How use of "party leaders" vs "individuals" tends to move people towards more/less of an implicit rating of the party as a whole.
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 6,865
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YouGov
Aug 20, 2020 14:08:01 GMT
Post by jamie on Aug 20, 2020 14:08:01 GMT
Redfield and Wilton find a pretty average Conservative lead in voting intention so their comfortable Conservative lead on best prime minister does look a little curious. I suspect their question wording (“at this moment”) inflates the Conservative lead on prime minister as the incumbent party.
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YouGov
Aug 20, 2020 14:59:58 GMT
Post by manchesterman on Aug 20, 2020 14:59:58 GMT
Probably just due to dissatisfaction with the main parties.
That and I think any Farage vehicle would get a few percentage points.
especially the one he's taken to skipping along the English Channel in, ever since he got fired from his day job and now seems to want to become an "investigative journalist" (sic)
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YouGov
Aug 20, 2020 17:54:02 GMT
Post by robert1 on Aug 20, 2020 17:54:02 GMT
There may have been another factor causing part of the variation in figures between the two polls published within a few hours of each other. For the Savanta/ComRes poll the fieldwork was 14th-18th. The responses will have been front date loaded. YouGov fieldwork was 18th-19th. The impact of the education/exam issue will therefore have been far greater in the YouGov poll. As Canute is supposed to have discovered, timing is everything.
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