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YouGov
Aug 9, 2020 4:57:43 GMT
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 9, 2020 4:57:43 GMT
You can't be saying there is no point in opposition parties advocating anything different from the government on covid policy or any other policy because there is no election for 9 months, can you?
It seems to me you are and that you are happy with the current equivalent of one party dictat that is currently being imposed upon us from Westminster.
I really do find this astounding but people's views often are often radically different.
Ce la vie, each to their own.
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YouGov
Aug 9, 2020 6:24:42 GMT
Post by yellowperil on Aug 9, 2020 6:24:42 GMT
This does seem a difficult time for any party to cut through on any clear policy and there does seem to be a sort of corona paralysis which in the case of the LibDems the leadership election only seems to be compounding.I understand where you are coming from but let's see where we are in say 6 months time, all may become a lot clearer on all fronts.
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YouGov
Aug 9, 2020 16:04:20 GMT
Post by tonygreaves on Aug 9, 2020 16:04:20 GMT
This does seem a difficult time for any party to cut through on any clear policy and there does seem to be a sort of corona paralysis which in the case of the LibDems the leadership election only seems to be compounding.I understand where you are coming from but let's see where we are in say 6 months time, all may become a lot clearer on all fronts. No Liberal paralysis in the Lords.! But not a lot of people notice what we do (as opposed to who is appointed).
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YouGov
Aug 9, 2020 16:46:25 GMT
Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 9, 2020 16:46:25 GMT
This does seem a difficult time for any party to cut through on any clear policy and there does seem to be a sort of corona paralysis which in the case of the LibDems the leadership election only seems to be compounding.I understand where you are coming from but let's see where we are in say 6 months time, all may become a lot clearer on all fronts.
On general policy, I agree with you; but on covid policy I have to disagree. I believe on this subject other ideas need to be heard now or we won't be any further forward in 6 months time, we really can't afford Corona paralysis to paralyse Corona policy as well as everything else.
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YouGov
Aug 9, 2020 16:47:03 GMT
Post by yellowperil on Aug 9, 2020 16:47:03 GMT
This does seem a difficult time for any party to cut through on any clear policy and there does seem to be a sort of corona paralysis which in the case of the LibDems the leadership election only seems to be compounding.I understand where you are coming from but let's see where we are in say 6 months time, all may become a lot clearer on all fronts. No Liberal paralysis in the Lords.! But not a lot of people notice what we do (as opposed to who is appointed). I am not surprised by either of those statements-it seems to me the Lib Dem peers do sterling work, but it also seems to me it largely goes unnoticed.
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Post by manchesterman on Aug 9, 2020 21:27:13 GMT
This does seem a difficult time for any party to cut through on any clear policy and there does seem to be a sort of corona paralysis which in the case of the LibDems the leadership election only seems to be compounding.I understand where you are coming from but let's see where we are in say 6 months time, all may become a lot clearer on all fronts.
On general policy, I agree with you; but on covid policy I have to disagree. I believe on this subject other ideas need to be heard now or we won't be any further forward in 6 months time, we really can't afford Corona paralysis to paralyse Corona policy as well as everything else.
I'm not really sure what you're arguing for here?
Let's say hypothetically that the opposition parties, for purely yah-boo politicking reasons, decided to oppose the current Covid plicy (and took up supporting Herd Immunity or something). Well the outcome of that would be:
1) The govt (within an 80 majority) would just completely ignore them and carry on with their policies anyway
2) The opposition would be hamstrung to a policy they dont believe in [indeed which they think would be disastrous] and if they revoked the policy a year or 2 later they would be (rightly) accused of flipflopping!
I, for one, am very much in favour of parties (MPs themselves preferably) judging each policy proposal on its merits and supporting or opposing it accordingly. I hate the red team/blue team/ yellow team/ green team etc politics we have to endure and it usually leads to bad policy decisions being made, as everyone toes the party line!
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YouGov
Aug 9, 2020 21:45:26 GMT
Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 9, 2020 21:45:26 GMT
The current lockdown, ban normal life mania of the freedom loving Conservative Party is not being opposed by anyone. We need constructive ideas from an opposition party to deliver a society in which people and the economy can thrive. We need an opposition party who says we trust the people to limit 19 without draconian rules. An opposition party that say that the guidance is that you should isolate, social distance if you are vulnerable, if your family is vulnerable or if you work with the vulnerable other than that get on withyour lives, we trust you to do the right thing but remember our trust in you comes with resposibility, don't complain if you take a risk and kill a family member because the whole of society need to be mature in its action whilst 19 is virile. Instead we have a NIparties-Green-Plaid-Lib-Lab-SNP-Con Junta thinking dictating to us. As the Con is leading the junta you might as well vote for them as noone else seems capable of thinking anything different.
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YouGov
Aug 9, 2020 21:47:38 GMT
Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 9, 2020 21:47:38 GMT
Oppositions parties that don't challange governments on anything, and especially on 19, might as well not be there.
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Post by manchesterman on Aug 9, 2020 22:09:59 GMT
Admin? I think Merseymike has hacked Alien's account To say the opposition dont challenge the government on anything is a strange statement. To say that they should oppose the Covid policy, even if they dont believe in any alternative option, would be odd ( as I explained). To say that the electorate may as well vote for the Tories as the other parties all hold similar (not identical) policies on Covid is the strangest statement of them all. Surely they would then consider the dozens of other policies in deciding how they will vote [economy, NHS, future EU-trade policy, education, environment etc etc.] I know the last election basically had only 2 issues: Brexit and keep Corbyn out. Elections are so rarely like that though - in fact what I'm stating is so obvious for members of a forum of this type, that I'm going to end it there.
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YouGov
Aug 9, 2020 22:26:11 GMT
Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 9, 2020 22:26:11 GMT
Currently Covid is number 1 issue, but parties are silent on everything else. No one is saying anything different on anything. I don't for one minute believe that all parties believe in governemnt covid policy. Personally I think they are running scared, afraid to do anything else because their little Westminster / Media bubble is telling them not to say anything different at all. If opposition parties stay silent on everything whats the point in them. All I want is for someone, some party to show some gumption and advocate some common sense trust in the public, but given the quality of our current politicians I don't expect it to happen. So as it is you might as well vote for the party in power if nobody is saying anything different to them on anything. Unlike on here, Oh and thanks for the complement of comparing me to forum stalwart merseymike.
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YouGov
Aug 10, 2020 0:15:08 GMT
Post by greenchristian on Aug 10, 2020 0:15:08 GMT
Currently Covid is number 1 issue, but parties are silent on everything else. No one is saying anything different on anything. I don't for one minute believe that all parties believe in governemnt covid policy. Personally I think they are running scared, afraid to do anything else because their little Westminster / Media bubble is telling them not to say anything different at all. If opposition parties stay silent on everything whats the point in them. All I want is for someone, some party to show some gumption and advocate some common sense trust in the public, but given the quality of our current politicians I don't expect it to happen. So as it is you might as well vote for the party in power if nobody is saying anything different to them on anything. Unlike on here, Oh and thanks for the complement of comparing me to forum stalwart merseymike. The lockdown policy in general is the result of following the advice of the vast majority of scientific opinion, and has been supported by the vast majority of the public. The fact that a small minority (who are vastly over-represented on this forum) disagree does not mean that there is any good reason for opposition parties to oppose the broad strokes of the policy. Also, opposition politicians have criticised the implementation of Covid policy, as well as some of the details. That's pretty much the full extent of what the opposition did during World War Two as well, and for similar reasons (national crisis, broad consensus about how to deal with it). Opposition parties were not pointless then and they are not pointless now.
And, in any case, by the time you next get to vote it is quite likely that other issues will have come back onto the political agenda. And there will be significantly more difference between the parties on those issues than there is on this one.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Aug 10, 2020 5:53:09 GMT
I understand the risks of Covid. I understand the scientific advice to reduce the spread. I understand the scientific advice is based on not trusting the general public to do what is sensible, so they are not doing so. I understand that politicians are happily not trusting the people either, based on the medical advice. I understand about a third of the population agrees. I understand that about another third has been scared by medics and the press into submission and it has nothing to do with the real level of risk. I undestand about a quarter are ambivalent. I understand the rest oppose lockdown. I understand its nothing like WW2 thats a false comparison. Maybe my use of the word pointless overstates it but overall they aren't really doing anything constructive enough to differentiate them from the ruling party, for them to be making enough of a case for them to voted for rather than the ruling party. In my opinion of course, no problem with others disagreeing, just very disappointed in the opposition parties at present and I say this as someone who has historically voted for them many more times than I ave voted for the current encumbant party of government. I guess my post reflect that disappointment more than anything else because I think they could be doing more, constructively, than they are. I realise many disagree with me, so be it.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Aug 10, 2020 8:14:18 GMT
Currently Covid is number 1 issue, but parties are silent on everything else. No one is saying anything different on anything. I don't for one minute believe that all parties believe in governemnt covid policy. Personally I think they are running scared, afraid to do anything else because their little Westminster / Media bubble is telling them not to say anything different at all. If opposition parties stay silent on everything whats the point in them. All I want is for someone, some party to show some gumption and advocate some common sense trust in the public, but given the quality of our current politicians I don't expect it to happen. So as it is you might as well vote for the party in power if nobody is saying anything different to them on anything. Unlike on here, Oh and thanks for the complement of comparing me to forum stalwart merseymike. The lockdown policy in general is the result of following the advice of the vast majority of scientific opinion, and has been supported by the vast majority of the public. The fact that a small minority (who are vastly over-represented on this forum) disagree does not mean that there is any good reason for opposition parties to oppose the broad strokes of the policy. Also, opposition politicians have criticised the implementation of Covid policy, as well as some of the details. That's pretty much the full extent of what the opposition did during World War Two as well, and for similar reasons (national crisis, broad consensus about how to deal with it). Opposition parties were not pointless then and they are not pointless now.
And, in any case, by the time you next get to vote it is quite likely that other issues will have come back onto the political agenda. And there will be significantly more difference between the parties on those issues than there is on this one.
This. Even if there was a credible, radically different policy approach to Covid available (some sort of Swedish approach) with significant public support (it would be wildly unpopular and die a dreadful death in a hostile media, except for maybe a fringe of c 10% of voters IMO - OK for UKIP or maybe even LDs, not for anyone else) no major election is going to be fought on Covid since not only is a GE (probably) years away but all elections are postponed until after Covid. Criticism of the competence of current handling is valid and in many ways more to the point as the pandemic is a test case of national competence globally in which competence of current leaders and the coherence and capacity of whole societies against the same problem can be assessed. The eventual assessment of both how well Johnson et al have handled it and what our collective response says about us as a society and what we want to do about that will be huge. Tbf to Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith I'm not sure the opposition parties have grabbed the national mood on this or worked out where they are going long-term but then I don't think anyone has (except possibly Sturgeon?) I do think that Johnson's rep for competence has been hit - "getting things done" may not be a good slogan for him going forward - and a reputation for what was called sleaze under Major has attached quite quickly. If they don't up their game I think their current lead is going to be very soft. I stand by my view that Cummingsgate was this govt's Black Thursday moment when they lost the confidence of most people.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,531
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Post by The Bishop on Aug 10, 2020 9:22:32 GMT
Whilst the Covid situation lasts the government will have even more of a "natural" advantage in media coverage than normal.
This may be a factor in the still high Tory VI ratings, it is more difficult than usual for the opposition to get attention.
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Post by Peter Wilkinson on Aug 10, 2020 9:24:54 GMT
Tbf to Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith I'm not sure the opposition parties have grabbed the national mood on this or worked out where they are going long-term but then I don't think anyone has (except possibly Sturgeon?) I do think that Johnson's rep for competence has been hit - "getting things done" may not be a good slogan for him going forward - and a reputation for what was called sleaze under Major has attached quite quickly. If they don't up their game I think their current lead is going to be very soft. I stand by my view that Cummingsgate was this govt's Black Thursday moment when they lost the confidence of most people.I think you probably mean Black Wednesday - but, assuming that, the point at which it became clear that people's confidence in the Major government was going to be permanently affected by the memory of Black Wednesday seems to have been when Major sacked Norman Lamont eight months later. The fact that, if anything, public opinion seems to have been even less willing to side with Lamont than with Major simply meant that neither was able to take the credit for Britain's subsequent economic recovery.
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YouGov
Aug 10, 2020 9:25:30 GMT
via mobile
Post by london(ex)tory on Aug 10, 2020 9:25:30 GMT
Whilst the Covid situation lasts the government will have even more of a "natural" advantage in media coverage than normal. This may be a factor in the still high Tory VI ratings, it is more difficult than usual for the opposition to get attention. Dawn Butler seems pretty good at getting attention, maybe you should have elected her deputy leader?
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,531
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YouGov
Aug 10, 2020 9:33:26 GMT
Post by The Bishop on Aug 10, 2020 9:33:26 GMT
Hilarious, have you tried stand up?
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Post by london(ex)tory on Aug 10, 2020 9:36:35 GMT
Hilarious, have you tried stand up? I’d rather stand up than take the knee
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
Posts: 8,050
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YouGov
Aug 10, 2020 10:16:34 GMT
Post by middyman on Aug 10, 2020 10:16:34 GMT
Hilarious, have you tried stand up? I’d rather stand up than take the knee If I were to take the knee, I would never be able to get up again given the current condition of my knees!
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YouGov
Aug 10, 2020 10:19:48 GMT
Post by finsobruce on Aug 10, 2020 10:19:48 GMT
Hilarious, have you tried stand up? I’d rather stand up than take the knee I think we all need a lie down.
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