Coalmining in the South-East

[East Anglian Lefty]

It's a little-known fact that David Cameron represented a coalfield seat. There were boreholes sunk near Witney and Chipping Norton in the 1960s, but the coal is too deep for it and insufficiently thick for it to have been economic to excavate. The same coalfield stretches in to Berkshire, there's a small coalfield between Dover and Canterbury (which was actually exploited, though never on an extensive scale) and in the 1950s there were excavations on Canvey Island, though no coal was actually found.

So what if we assume that all these coalfields (putative or actual) were successfully and extensively excavated and developed the associated social institutions? (For the sake of the argument, let's cancel it out by saying that the coal in the Dukeries is uneconomic to excavate and that mines in the North-East are exhausted a few generations earlier than in our timeline.) If Aylesham in Kent grew to around 30,000 houses (as planned), instead of the 1,000 houses that were actually built, that's at least one safe Labour seat there, and if we add some extra ones in north Oxfordshire and west Berkshire, the Home Counties look rather different. It would probably also affect areas outside the coalfields themselves - in Oxford, for example, industry would probably have become dominant over gown earlier under those circumstances than happened in reality.

Moreover, in the Miner's Strike the conflict would probably have been defined in less regional terms and it might have been harder for Thatcher to take the line she did with more of the country in close proximity to the affected areas. Similarly, with mining as a major employer, South Essex is probably a little less likely to develop the sort of individualistic political culture it did in our timeline.

Thinking more broadly, it potentially also limits the growth of London somewhat. The relatively dearth of cities and large towns in the south is partly because when agricultural labourers migrated to urban areas in the 19th century, London was a much bigger draw than, say, Huntingdon. But if there's high-wage mining employment available, then low-paid factory employment would probably hold less appeal and you'd probably get more heavy industry developing in centres nearer the coalfields.

Any thoughts?

[Sibboleth]

The exact impact would depend on when the coalfields were developed and along what lines. If postwar, for instance, then the NCB preferred to expand existing towns with new houses for miners and their families rather than to create new communities dominated by them. This would somewhat dilute the electoral impact of coal during its local heyday and would also mean that its political legacy would start to shrink with the death of the industry (though would still be felt o/c). Large scale heavy industry in the South East during the period of the rigidly dirigiste national planning framework would have had all kinds of knock-on effects, though it's hard to be entirely sure what. But if the large scale exploitation of these coalfields began at an earlier date, then the consequences would have been immense: the entire South East is effectively (as o/c you know and have reminded everyone again here) part of the London metropolitan region. But if large scale modern industry had developed in parts of the region independent of London when the region was still agricultural hinterland you would have seen the development of an entirely different urban hierarchy, something more like what is typical in the North of England or Germany.

[yellowperil]

Jun 21, 2018 13:32:39 GMT Sibboleth said:

The exact impact would depend on when the coalfields were developed and along what lines. If postwar, for instance, then the NCB preferred to expand existing towns with new houses for miners and their families rather than to create new communities dominated by them. This would somewhat dilute the electoral impact of coal during its local heyday and would also mean that its political legacy would start to shrink with the death of the industry (though would still be felt o/c). Large scale heavy industry in the South East during the period of the rigidly dirigiste national planning framework would have had all kinds of knock-on effects, though it's hard to be entirely sure what. But if the large scale exploitation of these coalfields began at an earlier date, then the consequences would have been immense: the entire South East is effectively (as o/c you know and have reminded everyone again here) part of the London metropolitan region. But if large scale modern industry had developed in parts of the region independent of London when the region was still agricultural hinterland you would have seen the development of an entirely different urban hierarchy, something more like what is typical in the North of England or Germany.

I understand the points being made and that this is a counterfactual proposition, but looking at this from a Kent point of view I think you may be underestimating what was here anyway. The Kent coalfield at its peak with its four deep (very deep- around the 3000 foot mark) mines totalling well over a million tons production, was something really quite big in the economy and society of East Kent, but also something rather foreign- almost literally as a lot of the miners were Welsh or Scots originally.  I realise you are postulating something on a greater scale than that, and that suggestion of Aylesham as a town with the potential  of 30,000 houses is often quoted  - instead you got a number of miners' villages including also Snowdown and Tilmanstone and Hersden, each physically, socially and politically  very different  from most of rural East Kent, but also a lot of mining families living in Dover town, which was by contrast already a  working class sort of place with a lot of other people working in port-related industries. It also needs saying that East Kent  Dover hinterland is well beyond the 50 miles from London zone so far less metropolitan in feel. For much of its history it has indeed been natural Labour territory. Indeed on an earlier thread I referred to the Dover constituency as being another ex-coalfield seat and this was rather denied by others, but I would stand by it.

[mboy]

If you just ask which railway lines would be extended to support it all, and then also where the ale brewery will go, this literally becomes the most “VOTE-UK” thread ever...

[spqr]

Jun 21, 2018 15:49:11 GMT yellowperil said:

Jun 21, 2018 13:32:39 GMT Sibboleth said:

* snip*

... and Tilmanstone and Hersden, each physically, socially and politically  very different  from most of rural East Kent, but also a lot of mining families living in Dover town, which was by contrast already a  working class sort of place with a lot of other people working in port-related industries. 

Many of the miners who worked at Betteshanger colliery lived in the Mill Hill estate on the outskirts of Deal. I seem to remember reading something a while ago about the culture clash that occurred in the town when they first arrived.

[yellowperil]

Jun 21, 2018 17:03:23 GMT spqr said:

Jun 21, 2018 15:49:11 GMT yellowperil said:

... and Tilmanstone and Hersden, each physically, socially and politically  very different  from most of rural East Kent, but also a lot of mining families living in Dover town, which was by contrast already a  working class sort of place with a lot of other people working in port-related industries. 

Many of the miners who worked at Betteshanger colliery lived in the Mill Hill estate on the outskirts of Deal. I seem to remember reading something a while ago about the culture clash that occurred in the town when they first arrived.

you are quite right. I thought of mentioning  the Deal situation in my original post, but tried not to overcomplicate the issue!

[carlton43]

The East Kent Light Railway was entirely coal based.

Dover, Walderslade, Nonnington and Wingham were all on proven seams and for a time it was all very productive.

[middyman]

Didn’t the seams extend under the Channel?

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Jun 21, 2018 20:37:12 GMT middyman said:

Didn’t the seams extend under the Channel?

Scene 101

[johnloony]

If the coal industry had been distributed differently geographically, it wouldn't have made much difference. The miners' strike was an existential struggle between trade union dinosaurism and Thatcherite individualism, not a primordial battle of North vs. South.

[Sibboleth]

Actually the geographic concentration of the industry (and so the strike) played a key role in how it unfolded, particularly as regards policing and the practice of shipping in police from regions without a mining industry to do the most brutal work as local forces were not trusted.

[middyman]

Reminds me of when I did a bit of conveyancing and the solicitor, (from Notts.) for the buyer of a property in central Suffolk asked me “Where is the nearest mine to the property?”. He was not impressed by my completely accurate reply: “The prehistoric flint mines at Grime’s Graves”. His school clearly did not teach the whereabouts of mining areas in the UK.

[Arthur Figgis]

Would Ribble Valley be a safe Labour seat if the Sabden treacle mines had expanded?

[carlton43]

Jun 22, 2018 13:58:31 GMT middyman said:

Reminds me of when I did a bit of conveyancing and the solicitor, (from Notts.) for the buyer of a property in central Suffolk asked me “Where is the nearest mine to the property?”. He was not impressed by my completely accurate reply: “The prehistoric flint mines at Grime’s Graves”. His school clearly did not teach the whereabouts of mining areas in the UK.

I remember going down Grimes Graves on a family holiday as an early teenager. We were there most of the day and only I went down them all through the manhole entrances and descend the steel ladders. The custodian definitely not up for it and nor were my parents. No one else there all day and the Visitor Book suggested some weeks since anyone else. Very different then and a facility then not long tidied up for the general public.

[middyman]

Jun 22, 2018 14:13:33 GMT Arthur Figgis said:

Would Ribble Valley be a safe Labour seat if the Sabden treacle mines had expanded?

A sticky question.  Ipswich treacle mine has closed and Labour have regained the seat.

[andrewteale]

The closure of the Knotty Ash jam butty mine hasn't resulted in a Diddy Labour vote there of course.

[jimboo2017]

When the Kent fields were opening up there was a shortage of miners and the recruitment agents who travelled round the country were hiring blacklisted radicals of every hue so they could fill their quota. Song by Alan Dunn, Kent Miner.

[froome]

A bit late to this thread.

There were, of course, extensive coal mines in N.E. Somerset and in Bristol. The N.E. Somerset constituency elected Labour MPS until very recently despite being fairly rural, even though the mines have been closed for at least 50 years, due mainly to this legacy. It is, of course, now represented by Jacob Rees-Mogg.

The Bristol mines had two fields, one in the east of the city and one in the south. Tunnels from these are extensive and almost meet directly under Temple Meads station.

[finsobruce]

Aug 26, 2018 19:49:45 GMT froome said:

A bit late to this thread.

There were, of course, extensive coal mines in N.E. Somerset and in Bristol. The N.E. Somerset constituency elected Labour MPS until very recently despite being fairly rural, even though the mines have been closed for at least 50 years, due mainly to this legacy. It is, of course, now represented by Jacob Rees-Mogg.

The Bristol mines had two fields, one in the east of the city and one in the south. Tunnels from these are extensive and almost meet directly under Temple Meads station.

Frome was Labour 1923-24, 1929-31 and 1945-50 before being abolished.

It came within about 900 votes of winning Somerset North in its initial contest in 1950 -  Labour candidate was the wonderfully named Xenia Field who also contested Colchester and wrote books on home gardening.

Wansdyke was Labour 1997-2010 (the swing in 97 being about 15%).

Current Tory majority in NE Somerset, 10,235.

[carlton43]

Aug 26, 2018 19:49:45 GMT froome said:

A bit late to this thread.

There were, of course, extensive coal mines in N.E. Somerset and in Bristol. The N.E. Somerset constituency elected Labour MPS until very recently despite being fairly rural, even though the mines have been closed for at least 50 years, due mainly to this legacy. It is, of course, now represented by Jacob Rees-Mogg.

The Bristol mines had two fields, one in the east of the city and one in the south. Tunnels from these are extensive and almost meet directly under Temple Meads station.

Hardly in the South-East are they?