Coalmining in the South-East

[sirbenjamin]

It's arrogantly presumptive to conclude that coalmines in the SE or Thames Valley would be as heavily unionised or Labour-voting as those in the North - unless the majority of the workforce migrated to the area specifically to work in the mines, which would make little sense as they could do the same thing more locally.

There are deep cultural divides that go far beyond what people happen to do for a living.

[yellowperil]

Aug 28, 2018 14:47:20 GMT sirbenjamin said:

It's arrogantly presumptive to conclude that coalmines in the SE or Thames Valley would be as heavily unionised or Labour-voting as those in the North - unless the majority of the workforce migrated to the area specifically to work in the mines, which would make little sense as they could do the same thing more locally.

There are deep cultural divides that go far beyond what people happen to do for a living.

They did indeed migrate, bringing their skills and culture with them- an awful lot were Scots or Welsh originally , and there were opportunities from breaking away from their home area. And yes they were unionised and Labour voting, by and large. I don't see what is arrogantly presumptive about that.

[yellowperil]

Aug 28, 2018 11:18:10 GMT @wattyler81 said:

Aug 28, 2018 10:44:39 GMT greenchristian said:

I'm now leaning towards the idea of East Kent being part of France.

Actually the Kingdom of Kent had strong relationships with the Caroliningians at one time, certainly the cultural influence was strong and they may have also had a tributary relationship

time indeed for Kent to declare independence and apply for EU membership where it will be a lot bigger than some existing members like Luxembourg or Malta.

[carlton43]

Aug 28, 2018 14:47:20 GMT sirbenjamin said:

It's arrogantly presumptive to conclude that coalmines in the SE or Thames Valley would be as heavily unionised or Labour-voting as those in the North - unless the majority of the workforce migrated to the area specifically to work in the mines, which would make little sense as they could do the same thing more locally.

There are deep cultural divides that go far beyond what people happen to do for a living.

The Kent Coalfield was largely a discovery from driving railway tunnels through the Chalk and Folkestone Greensand layers on approaches to the Channel Ports. Irish navvies reported to the foreman hitting seams of black chalk!

And most of the work force did indeed migrate from the North and Scotland. They would have been unionised before migration.  And mining is always fully unionised except in the Forest of Dean style self-owned ancient rights craft mines. Most of them came into Dover constituency and that always already had a strong Labour base from shipping, ports, dock workers, railway staff and some industry.

I disagree with yellowperil over the simlarity to Somerset.

[sirbenjamin]

Aug 28, 2018 15:53:49 GMT carlton43 said:

Aug 28, 2018 14:47:20 GMT sirbenjamin said:

It's arrogantly presumptive to conclude that coalmines in the SE or Thames Valley would be as heavily unionised or Labour-voting as those in the North - unless the majority of the workforce migrated to the area specifically to work in the mines, which would make little sense as they could do the same thing more locally.

There are deep cultural divides that go far beyond what people happen to do for a living.

The Kent Coalfield was largely a discovery from driving railway tunnels through the Chalk and Folkestone Greensand layers on approaches to the Channel Ports. Irish navvies reported to the foreman hitting seams of black chalk!

And most of the work force did indeed migrate from the North and Scotland. They would have been unionised before migration.  And mining is always fully unionised except in the Forest of Dean style self-owned ancient rights craft mines. Most of them came into Dover constituency and that always already had a strong Labour base from shipping, ports, dock workers, railway staff and some industry.

I disagree with yellowperil over the simlarity to Somerset.

But this discussion is about what would theoretically happen if the Southern coalfields had been exploited on a larger scale over a longer period of time, no? I'm not convinced that could ever have happened without establishing a substantial local workforce with a different culture and values and a different concept of Good and Evil.

If it had been entirely dependent on migrant labour in the necessary numbers, it would've had significant knock-on effects on the areas from which the miners migrated. Such 'Corby Scots' style scenarios are fairly uncommon now.

If a bunch of miners had been brought over from West Virginia, would they all become Socialists?

[Sibboleth]

I think you're making the error of projecting your own strange and extreme form of rabid ultra-partisanship on other people. I do not believe that people in Oxfordshire (for instance) have a different concept of Good and Evil to people in County Durham.

[yellowperil]

Aug 28, 2018 15:53:49 GMT carlton43 said:

Aug 28, 2018 14:47:20 GMT sirbenjamin said:

It's arrogantly presumptive to conclude that coalmines in the SE or Thames Valley would be as heavily unionised or Labour-voting as those in the North - unless the majority of the workforce migrated to the area specifically to work in the mines, which would make little sense as they could do the same thing more locally.

There are deep cultural divides that go far beyond what people happen to do for a living.

The Kent Coalfield was largely a discovery from driving railway tunnels through the Chalk and Folkestone Greensand layers on approaches to the Channel Ports. Irish navvies reported to the foreman hitting seams of black chalk!

And most of the work force did indeed migrate from the North and Scotland. They would have been unionised before migration.  And mining is always fully unionised except in the Forest of Dean style self-owned ancient rights craft mines. Most of them came into Dover constituency and that always already had a strong Labour base from shipping, ports, dock workers, railway staff and some industry.

I disagree with yellowperil over the simlarity to Somerset.

There are of course important differences as well as "simlarities". I don't know how well you know the West Country  coalfields - I think I'm on stronger ground in Somerset than I am in Kent as I feel myself  a Somerset man more than a man of Kent, even now, and though my roots are in South Somerset I had family in Radstock and Midsomer Norton and friends in Pensford, so reasonably at home on the "wrong side of the Mendips". Oh and if people are going to push the peculiarities of the Forest of Dean,  which is something else again, then that is really  where my ancestry goes back  on my father's side at least, and my father's working life began if not in the Forest of Dean coalfield then in a development from it- he began as an apprentice boilermaker at the Lydney coal-fired power station. And of course very much a Labour man and a union man, to come back to where the argument began, if anyone remembers that.

[carlton43]

Not a pissing contest yellowperil. I know you know both ends well. I have visited the Somerset coalfields area and read up on it in connection with railways. I do know the Kent coalfield very well and have read up on it even more extensively. I have been to a number of the mines and in youth played rugby against two of the pit teams.

As I see it the only similarity is that they each have coal and once had mines. Nothing else seems to match very much. Not the people, the terrain nor climate.

[yellowperil]

Concede it pisses down a good deal more in Somerset, and the terrain is lumpier, but people are people and I don't see the major difference between the Somerset miners and the Kent ones.

[froome]

It's also worth remembering that migration happened both ways. In Somerset, many workers from there migrated to the south Wales coalfield. This doesn't seem to have stopped them becoming culturally part of south Walian life, including becoming union members working in the mines.

Which suggests to me that had there been extensive coal workings in southern England, a culture not dissimilar to that in the northern coalfields may have developed in those areas.

[Old Fashioned Leftie]

I supported and helped raise money for the 1984 miners strike. Whilst most of my time was spent helping the so-called "Dirty Thirty" (the striking miners of Leicestershire) one of my abiding memories is of the militancy of the Kent miners. On one occasion we heard, through a radical bookshop, that Thatcher was visiting a local company. A crowd of about 6-700 were there to greet her, being lead by a group of striking Kent miners. As her car approached fighting began with "Maggie Thatcher's Boot Boys" as they were termed, with several of the Kent miners I knew bursting through their line. The sight of the former PM literally run from the car is a sight I will remember to my dying day. If the miners had got hold of her I dread to think what would have happened.

[yellowperil]

Aug 29, 2018 8:54:08 GMT froome said:

It's also worth remembering that migration happened both ways. In Somerset, many workers from there migrated to the south Wales coalfield. This doesn't seem to have stopped them becoming culturally part of south Walian life, including becoming union members working in the mines.

Which suggests to me that had there been extensive coal workings in southern England, a culture not dissimilar to that in the northern coalfields may have developed in those areas.

That is absolutely right and not at all surprising. Somehow we seem to be getting the idea that the Somerset miners were all clones of JRM, and I assure you that was a very long way indeed from being the case - the Somerset miners would pretty soon fit perfectly into South Walian cultural identity.