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Post by greenhert on Sept 2, 2019 21:45:34 GMT
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,372
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Post by Sibboleth on Sept 2, 2019 23:30:45 GMT
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,372
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Post by Sibboleth on Sept 3, 2019 14:24:21 GMT
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,274
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Post by Georg Ebner on Sept 3, 2019 23:03:54 GMT
Some ObJections: The OutCome was not "sensational" The LEFT has been in one government. The Left was not AfD's "main victim": The VoteStreamAnalyses of "ForschungsGruppe Wahlen" and "InfraTest Dimap" claim very low (perhaps too low to be true) transfers LEFT-AfD. The latter surely gained the most from NonVoters. (The InCrease of TurnOut was in towns certainly more "AntiFa", but helped AfD in rural areas, too.) UnEmployment in the East "nearly treble" is very outdated statistics: Presently 5.1% are in Germany, 4.8% in the West, 6.4% in the East, 5.6% in Brandenburg, 5.4% in Saxony - so basically already german average! In Brandenburg SPD survived, if i remember correctly, rather in non-commuting FringeAreas. FDP cannot be really "disappointed", because the OpinionPolls gave them 4% or 5%. For FW those 5% were not "vital", because of the 1 FPTP-seat they won (and it was also not "only" 1 seat - they did not expect more and even this one was far from certain, so quite a success). Why the GREENS governing would help, that the East "can catch up", is - at least concerning the economy - dubious.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 4, 2019 8:52:33 GMT
On the point about the Greens struggling in rural areas in Brandenburg and to an extent Saxony- there's a reason here that you possibly aren't aware of. Other than out west towards Aachen, most of Germany's lignite mining takes place out East. In some parts, it's the only game in town. iainbhx knows the area so will know more.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 4, 2019 8:53:20 GMT
Does anyone know if Sorbs show any different voting patterns? I suspect they don't. After all, there was a Sorbian minister president in Saxony until recently.
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,274
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Post by Georg Ebner on Sept 4, 2019 13:00:37 GMT
Does anyone know if Sorbs show any different voting patterns? I suspect they don't. After all, there was a Sorbian minister president in Saxony until recently. LowerLausitz was even CDU's StrongHold in Brandenburg. (Now it's AfD's, what probably proves only, that the area does not consist only of Sorbs...)
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 4, 2019 13:19:35 GMT
Does anyone know if Sorbs show any different voting patterns? I suspect they don't. After all, there was a Sorbian minister president in Saxony until recently. LowerLausitz was even CDU's StrongHold in Brandenburg. (Now it's AfD's, what probably proves only, that the area does not consist only of Sorbs...) Surely the AfD don't have a problem with Sorbs?
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,372
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Post by Sibboleth on Sept 4, 2019 13:28:04 GMT
Does anyone know if Sorbs show any different voting patterns? I suspect they don't. After all, there was a Sorbian minister president in Saxony until recently. That little cluster of towns where Sorbian is the main language just west of Bautzen is a notable CDU stronghold - over 50% (and some over 60%) CDU in this election. Back in the heyday of the Saxon CDU the numbers were in the 80s (no joke). But I don't know how typical the voters there are of all Sorbs.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 4, 2019 13:30:37 GMT
Does anyone know if Sorbs show any different voting patterns? I suspect they don't. After all, there was a Sorbian minister president in Saxony until recently. That little cluster of towns where Sorbian is the main language just west of Bautzen is a notable CDU stronghold - over 50% (and some over 60%) CDU in this election. Back in the heyday of the Saxon CDU the numbers were in the 80s (no joke). But I don't know how typical the voters there are of all Sorbs. I didn't know until recently that northern Sorbs are Lutheran, and southern Sorbs are Catholic. A curious replication of Germany itself.
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Post by iainbhx on Sept 4, 2019 13:30:59 GMT
On the point about the Greens struggling in rural areas in Brandenburg and to an extent Saxony- there's a reason here that you possibly aren't aware of. Other than out west towards Aachen, most of Germany's lignite mining takes place out East. In some parts, it's the only game in town. iainbhx knows the area so will know more. Parts of Sachen-Anhalt as well, particularly down in the Burgenlandkreis and yes, in some places, it is the only game in town. In Zeitz, there's that and the sugar factory and the sugar factory is closing. Zeitz has less than half the population it had at Mauerfall and let's say the age profile isn't pretty.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,372
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Post by Sibboleth on Sept 4, 2019 13:33:29 GMT
That little cluster of towns where Sorbian is the main language just west of Bautzen is a notable CDU stronghold - over 50% (and some over 60%) CDU in this election. Back in the heyday of the Saxon CDU the numbers were in the 80s (no joke). But I don't know how typical the voters there are of all Sorbs. I didn't know until recently that northern Sorbs are Lutheran, and southern Sorbs are Catholic. A curious replication of Germany itself. Apparently during the Weimar Republic they mostly voted Zentrum or DVP and the latter right up until the end as well.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2019 14:11:42 GMT
I didn't know until recently that northern Sorbs are Lutheran, and southern Sorbs are Catholic. A curious replication of Germany itself. Apparently during the Weimar Republic they mostly voted Zentrum or DVP and the latter right up until the end as well. The Polish-speakers of the southern half of East Prussia were also very German in their self-identification (see the results of the post-WW1 plebiscite) and rather German nationalist in their politics, despite their proximity to Poland proper. Although they were not expelled after WW2, most chose to leave when the area was awarded to Poland .
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 4, 2019 14:40:05 GMT
Apparently during the Weimar Republic they mostly voted Zentrum or DVP and the latter right up until the end as well. The Polish-speakers of the southern half of East Prussia were also very German in their self-identification (see the results of the post-WW1 plebiscite) and rather German nationalist in their politics, despite their proximity to Poland proper. Although they were not expelled after WW2, most chose to leave when the area was awarded to Poland . The most reliably right-wing German nationalists in the whole imperial era, and most obsessive Prussian loyalists, were the Prussian Lithuanians, who were all Lutheran. They saw no problem in being both German and Lithuanian-speaking: indeed, they considered themselves a separate ethnic group, which arguably they were eventually. It ended in a very sad way. They were expelled at the end of the war despite being the indigenous inhabitants. Most ended up in and around Hesse, and there are still Lithuanian-language secondary schools round there, although much diminished.
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Georg Ebner
Non-Aligned
Roman romantic reactionary Catholic
Posts: 9,274
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Post by Georg Ebner on Sept 4, 2019 16:20:21 GMT
The Sorbian council ("SorbenRat") was in Brandenburg - Saxony has another one - elected for the first time in 2015 (with not much more than 1.000 participants). This SunDay the second election seems to have taken place.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,372
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Post by Sibboleth on Sept 4, 2019 16:31:21 GMT
The Polish-speakers of the southern half of East Prussia were also very German in their self-identification (see the results of the post-WW1 plebiscite) and rather German nationalist in their politics, despite their proximity to Poland proper. Although they were not expelled after WW2, most chose to leave when the area was awarded to Poland . Interesting to contrast with the very mixed (culturally, linguistically, ancestrally) population in Upper Silesia who had a less friendly relationship with the German Nationalist ideology (though absolutely identified strongly as German), mostly stayed put after 1945 and remain in the general region to this day (though large numbers left for Germany as soon as Ostpolitik made doing so possible, and more still after 1990). Of course they were (are) Catholics, and that's the difference.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,372
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Post by Sibboleth on Sept 4, 2019 16:36:52 GMT
The most reliably right-wing German nationalists in the whole imperial era, and most obsessive Prussian loyalists, were the Prussian Lithuanians, who were all Lutheran. They saw no problem in being both German and Lithuanian-speaking: indeed, they considered themselves a separate ethnic group, which arguably they were eventually. It ended in a very sad way. They were expelled at the end of the war despite being the indigenous inhabitants. Most ended up in and around Hesse, and there are still Lithuanian-language secondary schools round there, although much diminished. There is something very interesting about Border People's.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 4, 2019 16:43:40 GMT
Apparently during the Weimar Republic they mostly voted Zentrum or DVP and the latter right up until the end as well. The Polish-speakers of the southern half of East Prussia were also very German in their self-identification (see the results of the post-WW1 plebiscite) and rather German nationalist in their politics, despite their proximity to Poland proper. Although they were not expelled after WW2, most chose to leave when the area was awarded to Poland . Speaking of this, they were known as Masurians. You had all sorts of pseudo-Polish groups like them, such as Kashubes, Goral and the like. To show how strange things were, the two most famous Kashubes are probably Günter Grass and Donald Tusk.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 4, 2019 16:48:43 GMT
The most reliably right-wing German nationalists in the whole imperial era, and most obsessive Prussian loyalists, were the Prussian Lithuanians, who were all Lutheran. They saw no problem in being both German and Lithuanian-speaking: indeed, they considered themselves a separate ethnic group, which arguably they were eventually. It ended in a very sad way. They were expelled at the end of the war despite being the indigenous inhabitants. Most ended up in and around Hesse, and there are still Lithuanian-language secondary schools round there, although much diminished. There is something very interesting about Border People's. And so many were destroyed by the insistence on ethnicity=nationhood. The aforementioned Prussian Lithuanians, Masurians, Karelians, Ingrian Finns, Kola Norwegians, Dalmatians, Pontic Greeks, Banat Germans, French Flemish, Pomaks... Although curiously they were outlasted by others you'd think were more likely to vanish. Sorbs, Ladins, Rumantsch, Aromanians (how they hell have they survived? Tough bastards, clearly), Tornedal Finns...
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 4, 2019 16:50:35 GMT
The Polish-speakers of the southern half of East Prussia were also very German in their self-identification (see the results of the post-WW1 plebiscite) and rather German nationalist in their politics, despite their proximity to Poland proper. Although they were not expelled after WW2, most chose to leave when the area was awarded to Poland . Interesting to contrast with the very mixed (culturally, linguistically, ancestrally) population in Upper Silesia who had a less friendly relationship with the German Nationalist ideology (though absolutely identified strongly as German), mostly stayed put after 1945 and remain in the general region to this day (though large numbers left for Germany as soon as Ostpolitik made doing so possible, and more still after 1990). Of course they were (are) Catholics, and that's the difference. Silesia more generally was a rather religiously tolerant place even during the Kulturkampf. Breslau University was even founded as the first mixed denomination theological college.
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