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Post by mrpastelito on Apr 26, 2018 8:27:46 GMT
The two things are perfectly compatible. Brentford is in Middlesex and Greater London and the London Borough of Hounslow. Harrogate is in North Yorkshire and in the West Riding of Yorkshire. Staines(-upon-Thames) is in Spelthorne Borough, in the area administered by Surrey County Council, and in Middlesex. In other news: the UK is part of Europe. And Wales is a part of England No, England is the part of Wales historically administered by Anglo-Saxons. |
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Post by mboy on Apr 26, 2018 16:05:24 GMT
And there's the UK where the capital city is London, but the seat of government and the Crown is Westminster. ... and the royal palace is in Kensington and Chelsea. Seriously, I think we know that the "London" people name as our capital is the "Greater" version, not the Square Mile. Some people consider the urban agglomeration in the centre of the Netherlands that includes both Amsterdam and The Hague, as well as Utrecht and lots of other smaller towns that more-or-less join up as the "Randstad", but in fact the separate identities of the two big cities is obvious. OTOH, ask someone to say where Westminster ends and K&C starts, and people have to start scrabbling for maps that show the boundaries. The inner London borough boundaries are rarely signed, you have to rely on changes in style of lamp post and street sign to work it out.
In the period between the GLC and the GLA, "London" effectively didn't exist as an administrative unit (rather uniquely in modern global cities, in fact). What did it mean to say "London" was our capital then? |
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Post by johnloony on Apr 26, 2018 16:08:50 GMT
Of core stizzent! It's in Greater London. The two things are perfectly compatible. (1) Brentford is in Middlesex and Greater London and the London Borough of Hounslow. (2) Harrogate is in North Yorkshire and in the West Riding of Yorkshire. (3) Staines(-upon-Thames) is in Spelthorne Borough, in the area administered by Surrey County Council,(4) and in Middlesex.(5) 1. Of core snot! That's a contradiction. Surrey and Greater London are two different counties, and it's not possible for anywhere to be in both places. 2. Brentford cannot possibly be in Middlesex, because Middlesex doesn't exist (it stopped existing in 1964). 3. Harrogate is in North Yorkshire, which means it cannot possibly be in the West Riding. 4. Yes 5. No (q.v.2) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2018 18:38:37 GMT
... and the royal palace is in Kensington and Chelsea. Seriously, I think we know that the "London" people name as our capital is the "Greater" version, not the Square Mile. Some people consider the urban agglomeration in the centre of the Netherlands that includes both Amsterdam and The Hague, as well as Utrecht and lots of other smaller towns that more-or-less join up as the "Randstad", but in fact the separate identities of the two big cities is obvious. OTOH, ask someone to say where Westminster ends and K&C starts, and people have to start scrabbling for maps that show the boundaries. The inner London borough boundaries are rarely signed, you have to rely on changes in style of lamp post and street sign to work it out.
In the period between the GLC and the GLA, "London" effectively didn't exist as an administrative unit (rather uniquely in modern global cities, in fact). What did it mean to say "London" was our capital then? Quite unique indeed. But whilst not an administrative unit (in that such a thing is, well, a unit with its own administration), London could be pretty aptly defined as the two ceremonial counties of Greater London and the City of London, as well as the area comprising of the units known as London boroughs (plus the City). Although I'm not sure that the 'London' which is the capital city of the UK is strictly defined as covering one of the areas known as London (the City, Greater London, the Inner London Boroughs etc.). There are a few cities in Scotland and Northern Ireland which aren't any sort of administrative unit. The three cities in England without a City Council (Durham, Bath and Chester) have Charter Trustees arrangements. |
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Post by yellowperil on Apr 26, 2018 19:24:39 GMT
I have been thinking of other international oddities . The seat of government for Sri Lanka is Sri Jayawardenepura Kott, and some authorities will list it as the capital, others give Colombo. SJK is a separate urban administration within Greater Colombo. It is probably the nearest analogy to the London/Westminster case, but I know no authority that lists Westminster as the capital of the UK. As with London & Westminster, if you walk between Colombo and SJK, it would be very difficult in some parts to know where the boundary lies.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Apr 26, 2018 21:15:37 GMT
The two things are perfectly compatible. (1) Brentford is in Middlesex and Greater London and the London Borough of Hounslow. (2) Harrogate is in North Yorkshire and in the West Riding of Yorkshire. (3) Staines(-upon-Thames) is in Spelthorne Borough, in the area administered by Surrey County Council,(4) and in Middlesex.(5) 1. Of core snot! That's a contradiction. Surrey and Greater London are two different counties, and it's not possible for anywhere to be in both places. 2. Brentford cannot possibly be in Middlesex, because Middlesex doesn't exist (it stopped existing in 1964). 3. Harrogate is in North Yorkshire, which means it cannot possibly be in the West Riding. 4. Yes 5. No (q.v.2) Oh John, you're so easy to wind up. But just for you, from www.gov.ukSomewhere near to that is a press release from Eric Pickles (when he was SoS for Local Gvt)announcing that he was flying the West Riding flag outside the ministry on Yorkshire Day (or whatever it was.) |
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Post by tiberius on Apr 26, 2018 21:17:39 GMT
Which parts of Greater London were once part of Middlesex?
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Apr 26, 2018 21:54:23 GMT
Which parts of Greater London were once part of Middlesex? Originally, everything north of the Thames and west of the river Lea. In modern terms that's the boroughs of Hillingdon, Hounslow, Harrow, Ealing, Brent, Barnet, Enfield,Haringey, Islington, Camden, City of Westminster (the Middlesex Guildhall is opposite the Houses of Parliament) City of London, Kensington & Chelsea, Hammersmith and Fulham, and the north-of-the-river parts of Richmond-upon-Thames. In Victorian times the County of London was created, taking a big chunk of Middx, Surrey, Kent and Essex - Middx lost the Cities of London and Westminster, and I think most if not all of Ken & Chelsea, Islington, Hammersmith, and Camden. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Apr 26, 2018 21:55:22 GMT
Which parts of Greater London were once part of Middlesex? Immediately before 1965, the boroughs of Hillingdon, Hounslow, Ealing, Harrow, Brent, Haringey and Enfield. Most of Barnet but not some bits of Chipping Barnet. And the part of Richmond upon Thames that is to the west of the river. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Apr 26, 2018 22:01:14 GMT
Which parts of Greater London were once part of Middlesex? Originally, everything north of the Thames and west of the river Lea. In modern terms that's the boroughs of Hillingdon, Hounslow, Harrow, Ealing, Brent, Barnet, Enfield,Haringey, Islington, Camden, City of Westminster (the Middlesex Guildhall is opposite the Houses of Parliament) City of London, Kensington & Chelsea, Hammersmith and Fulham, and the north-of-the-river parts of Richmond-upon-Thames. In Victorian times the County of London was created, taking a big chunk of Middx, Surrey, Kent and Essex - Middx lost the Cities of London and Westminster, and I think most if not all of Ken & Chelsea, Islington, Hammersmith, and Camden. The LCC area didn't include any part of Essex |
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Post by Andrew_S on Apr 26, 2018 22:04:06 GMT
Was the City of London part of Middlesex? I thought it was always its own area so to speak.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Apr 26, 2018 22:29:05 GMT
Originally, everything north of the Thames and west of the river Lea. In modern terms that's the boroughs of Hillingdon, Hounslow, Harrow, Ealing, Brent, Barnet, Enfield,Haringey, Islington, Camden, City of Westminster (the Middlesex Guildhall is opposite the Houses of Parliament) City of London, Kensington & Chelsea, Hammersmith and Fulham, and the north-of-the-river parts of Richmond-upon-Thames. In Victorian times the County of London was created, taking a big chunk of Middx, Surrey, Kent and Essex - Middx lost the Cities of London and Westminster, and I think most if not all of Ken & Chelsea, Islington, Hammersmith, and Camden. The LCC area didn't include any part of Essex Did it not? Not even Tower Hamlets? |
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Post by swanarcadian on Apr 26, 2018 22:33:20 GMT
Some of my ancestors were, according to the 19th century censuses, born in Bermondsey, Surrey.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Apr 26, 2018 22:37:31 GMT
Was the City of London part of Middlesex? I thought it was always its own area so to speak. Well the City has always been peculiar and I think essentially you're right - when I said "originally" I'm going back to pre-1066 |
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Post by johnloony on Apr 26, 2018 23:20:57 GMT
Oh John, you're so easy to wind up. But just for you, from www.gov.ukWhy are you making a fool of yourself by quoting a pack of lies written by an overtly insane fantasist who has obviously escaped from a top-security hospital for the criminally insane and who has obviously travelled half way across the universe and come to Earth specifically for the purpose of destroying the whole of civilisation? The first sentence in that quotation is untrue, because there are no such ceremonial or traditional counties; they ceased to exist when they were correctively obliterated by the reforms of the 1960s and 1970s. The second sentence is untrue, because those non-existent counties do not, and could not possibly, form the current structure of our counties in England. The third paragraph is untrue, because it incorrectly uses the present tense to describe a sate of existence which ceased to exist decades ago. |
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Post by Foggy on Apr 26, 2018 23:47:50 GMT
1. Of core snot! That's a contradiction. Surrey and Greater London are two different counties, and it's not possible for anywhere to be in both places. 2. Brentford cannot possibly be in Middlesex, because Middlesex doesn't exist (it stopped existing in 1964). 3. Harrogate is in North Yorkshire, which means it cannot possibly be in the West Riding. 4. Yes 5. No (q.v.2) Oh John, you're so easy to wind up. Point proven there I think, Adam! Middlesex County Cricket Club must be confused at having won the County Championship more times since they ceased to exist than they did while they still existed. In addition, I certainly recall Middlesex being recommended for use on postal addresses into the 2000s (for example, on British Satellite Broadcasting programming for mail directed to its headquarters in Isleworth). I'd say the local government reforms of the 1960s and 1970s (and subsequently in some cases), rather than being "corrective", did more for "the purpose of destroying the whole of civilisation " than any fantasists ever might have done. Then again, it's easy to have a different opinion from the vantage point of "a top-security hospital for the criminally insane" located in Croydon, Surrey.  |
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Post by yellowperil on Apr 27, 2018 5:26:55 GMT
Oh John, you're so easy to wind up. But just for you, from www.gov.ukWhy are you making a fool of yourself by quoting a pack of lies written by an overtly insane fantasist who has obviously escaped from a top-security hospital for the criminally insane and who has obviously travelled half way across the universe and come to Earth specifically for the purpose of destroying the whole of civilisation? The first sentence in that quotation is untrue, because there are no such ceremonial or traditional counties; they ceased to exist when they were correctively obliterated by the reforms of the 1960s and 1970s. The second sentence is untrue, because those non-existent counties do not, and could not possibly, form the current structure of our counties in England. The third paragraph is untrue, because it incorrectly uses the present tense to describe a sate of existence which ceased to exist decades ago. I am saddened to see these derogatory remarks about mental illness, particularly when they come from John Loony. And if you are attacking overtly insane fantasists you are probably attacking the majority of the forum. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Apr 27, 2018 7:15:51 GMT
The LCC area didn't include any part of Essex Did it not? Not even Tower Hamlets? Which parts of Greater London were once part of Middlesex? Originally, everything north of the Thames and west of the river Lea. Think about it  |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Apr 27, 2018 7:44:09 GMT
Did it not? Not even Tower Hamlets? Originally, everything north of the Thames and west of the river Lea. Think about it Fair point, well made. I've always thought of Tower Hamlets as the epicentre of the East End and the latter as being Essex rather than Middlesex, wrongly of course. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Apr 27, 2018 7:46:35 GMT
Think about it Fair point, well made. I've always thought of Tower Hamlets as the epicentre of the East End and the latter as being Essex rather than Middlesex, wrongly of course. Yes I know what you mean - it feels like it should have been in Essex. I suppose it was in the old Anglo Saxon Kingdom of Essex if you want to go back further |
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