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Post by lancastrian on Dec 2, 2017 1:01:06 GMT
Yes, you are. In Labour areas your toxicity came from participating in the Tory-led government. In Tory areas, your toxicity came from voters initially seeing no real reason to vote for you when they could get much the same from voting Tory. Your results were much the same across the country irrespective of whether they were leave or Remain areas. You do well at local by-elections because of the success of local populism, and I don;t think that the minority of voters who participate in local elections are voting on the basis of Brexit at all. Either way. As someone who has campaigned in Brexit areas post-referendum, both nationally and at local by-elections, I know that our Brexit position has been toxic among some groups of voters, including people who had been previous voters. But of course I bow to your superior knowledge ... 🙄 Did any toxicity ever really show in local by elections though? It might have done in the general election and the nationwide local elections, but in the nine months after the referendum you gained seats in Sunderland, Sheffield, Rotherham, North East Derbyshire and Kettering (the latter also on opposition to housing IIRC). |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,028
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Post by Khunanup on Dec 2, 2017 1:17:08 GMT
The working class is meaningless? Who delivers your post, serves you in shops, drives the buses or trains you use, cuts your hair or brings you your coffee in the coffee shop? This is an excellent illustration of why I utterly reject the Liberal Democrats and refuse to "lend them my vote". Experience tells me that if you do that they will count it as a whole-hearted endorsement of what, for want of a better word, we shall call their policies. Nevertheless, congratulations to them. Unusually I am in agreement with carlton43 whose analysis of the results is actually very good here. It's noteworthy that all 4 of the constituencies where the by-elections took place are safe Conservative seats, and only one has been anywhere remotely near electing a Labour MP in most people's living memory (Gosport, in 2001). People do all those jobs. You know, individuals with their own likes and dislikes, hopes and dreams which are not dictated to by whatever 'class' they are deemed to be a member of. |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Dec 2, 2017 1:32:48 GMT
Bridgemary North is next door to Stubbington in Fareham where we made a similarly convincing gain a couple of weeks ago. Development, and particularly overdevelopment, is a massive issue in the South East Hants area at the moment due to the intense population density and the creaking infrastructure for which there's little prospect of any real improvement despite the pressure of mandated development. As for Gosport Labour, I think the County result from May for Bridgemary tells you what kind of state they're in... And yet the Lib Dems came out the other week saying they will build more houses - your website even features a petition for the government to build more. You might say overdevelopment is an issue specific to South Hampshire, but in local parties up and down the country the campaign tactics are exactly the same. Where exactly do the Lib Dems want to build hundreds of thousands of extra homes? Mass housebuilding needs mass infrastructure investment before plans are even halfway to being finalised. The South Hants conurbation is the most densely populated area outside London and more densely populated than anywhere in London save the central boroughs. We have the additional issue of the sea which is a barrier you can't easily breach combined with peninsulas, islands and other difficult terrain. Sustainable transport spending has been nearly non-existent, instead it seems to be a race to enabling the M27 to have the capacity to contain more cars when it gets gridlocked at no discernible benefit to any of the other roads in the area has soaked up all the transport funding in the region. Why do you think we as a party want mass infrastructure investment? |
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Adrian
Co-operative Party
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Post by Adrian on Dec 2, 2017 2:16:40 GMT
While all these opinions are being spouted about how/whether the 'Brexit' mood has changed, try a little evidence: ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9940I recommend scrolling down to 'Bregrets - there are a few, but then again, too few to mention'. At the time I thought that was underplaying the evidence somewhat, and in the intervening two months the evidence has strengthened further. Remember that politics is about the margins. It's all very well saying that the majority of Leavers haven't budged; what matters is the minority who have budged. If the referendum was held today the result would probably be different. That point is moot in many respects, of course, but politically it can't really be ignored. The government can't negotiate and behave on the basis that the country wants out, it has to (or should) negotiate and behave on the basis that the country is ambivalent. |
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Post by yellowperil on Dec 2, 2017 9:33:18 GMT
And yet the Lib Dems came out the other week saying they will build more houses - your website even features a petition for the government to build more. You might say overdevelopment is an issue specific to South Hampshire, but in local parties up and down the country the campaign tactics are exactly the same. Where exactly do the Lib Dems want to build hundreds of thousands of extra homes? Wanting to see a lot more houses built nationally is not incompatible with opposing unplanned developer-led sprawl with no proper infrastructure. There are many areas ( I know my own part of Kent is one) where Lib Dems have been long calling for expansion backed with the right planning tools and infrastructure development, and indeed where they have been punished electorally by the growth of NIMBY-minded localists and independents. |
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Post by yellowperil on Dec 2, 2017 9:58:05 GMT
I went to bed early last night and have been out most of the day, so just seen these results. They were a surprise and they are emphatic but may not be very significant? Firstly.....Congratulations to my LD friends and the LD Team. It would be churlish not to recognize a damn fine night for you all. Well done. You must have been given a good feeling by this despite last week? It was a clean sweep with gains all But the results are good enough to suggest it to be more than just protest votes. I really do doubt that the LD stance on Brexit is well known and understood enough to more than a very marginal influence. You are further forward in the recovery from Coalition taint. Thanks, Carlton for a generous and reflective survey which in fact echoes almost everything I have said from a Lib Dem perspective.I like to think though, that this does presage that long awaited Lib Dem recovery on a grander scale. One can but hope. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,983
Member is Online
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Post by The Bishop on Dec 2, 2017 10:59:51 GMT
While all these opinions are being spouted about how/whether the 'Brexit' mood has changed, try a little evidence: ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9940I recommend scrolling down to 'Bregrets - there are a few, but then again, too few to mention'. At the time I thought that was underplaying the evidence somewhat, and in the intervening two months the evidence has strengthened further. Remember that politics is about the margins. It's all very well saying that the majority of Leavers haven't budged; what matters is the minority who have budged. If the referendum was held today the result would probably be different. That point is moot in many respects, of course, but politically it can't really be ignored. The government can't negotiate and behave on the basis that the country wants out, it has to (or should) negotiate and behave on the basis that the country is ambivalent. FWIW there is some polling evidence of a minor shift towards staying in the EU. But the point is that doesn't really explain the LibDems sweeping to victory in a strongly "leave" area like Gosport, and any assumption along those lines is likely to come to grief. |
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sirbenjamin
IFP
True fame is reading your name written in graffiti, but without the words 'is a wanker' after it.
Posts: 4,979
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Post by sirbenjamin on Dec 2, 2017 11:42:38 GMT
The working class is meaningless? Who delivers your post, serves you in shops, drives the buses or trains you use, cuts your hair or brings you your coffee in the coffee shop? This is an excellent illustration of why I utterly reject the Liberal Democrats and refuse to "lend them my vote". Experience tells me that if you do that they will count it as a whole-hearted endorsement of what, for want of a better word, we shall call their policies. Nevertheless, congratulations to them. Unusually I am in agreement with carlton43 whose analysis of the results is actually very good here. It's noteworthy that all 4 of the constituencies where the by-elections took place are safe Conservative seats, and only one has been anywhere remotely near electing a Labour MP in most people's living memory (Gosport, in 2001). People do all those jobs. You know, individuals with their own likes and dislikes, hopes and dreams which are not dictated to by whatever 'class' their are deemed to be a member of. Good luck trying to explain that concept to anyone on the hard left... |
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,028
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Post by Khunanup on Dec 2, 2017 12:00:21 GMT
People do all those jobs. You know, individuals with their own likes and dislikes, hopes and dreams which are not dictated to by whatever 'class' their are deemed to be a member of. Good luck trying to explain that concept to anyone on the hard left... Or, it must be said, to many on the right who openly ignore 'working class' areas/voters because they 'don't vote for us'. It's one of the deep connections between Liberalism and localism. If you inherently approach and deal with people as individuals rather than whatever label they're given or even give themselves then localism comes naturally as the way you operate politically mirrors that. People make up communities, not the other way round, they shape what it looks like and should have the say over what happens to it. It's a concept difficult to grasp if you adhere to economic based political ideologies but no less valid. |
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Dec 2, 2017 14:33:08 GMT
It's one of the main things that put me off UKIP in the end - constantly banging on about 'the working class'. It was self-evidently the case that the party had more appeal amongst people in lower socio economic groups (though as always that is at least partly a function of the age profile) but I always preferred to see people as individuals from whatever background who happened to agree with our policies and values. Apart from the obvious fact that many working class people didn't support our values and this reality comes up against a growing sense of entitlement -the idea that these are 'our people' in the same way that the Labour party has seen things for so long - it also tends to exclude people who don't identify as part of the favoured group. And you end up with the absurd spectacle of Suzanne Evans calling herself a Socialist and trying to play the fucking working class hero  |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,983
Member is Online
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Post by The Bishop on Dec 2, 2017 14:54:56 GMT
You mean former Tory councillor (and fairly right wing Tory at that) Suzanne Evans?  |
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Post by andrew111 on Dec 2, 2017 15:19:55 GMT
Bridgemary North is next door to Stubbington in Fareham where we made a similarly convincing gain a couple of weeks ago. Development, and particularly overdevelopment, is a massive issue in the South East Hants area at the moment due to the intense population density and the creaking infrastructure for which there's little prospect of any real improvement despite the pressure of mandated development. As for Gosport Labour, I think the County result from May for Bridgemary tells you what kind of state they're in... And yet the Lib Dems came out the other week saying they will build more houses - your website even features a petition for the government to build more. You might say overdevelopment is an issue specific to South Hampshire, but in local parties up and down the country the campaign tactics are exactly the same. Where exactly do the Lib Dems want to build hundreds of thousands of extra homes? It is quite hard for ordinary voters to discover given the media blackout what Lib Dem policies are, so you failing to notice is not very surprising, but here you are: www.knauf.co.uk/news/liberal-democrats-plan-new-garden-cities-749or here if you want the actual words... www.libdems.org.uk/families |
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Post by yellowperil on Dec 2, 2017 16:03:54 GMT
Yes I has thought much of this policy excellent but I hadn't quoted it myself because there are 3 little words I personally think are wrong -"at least ten" new garden cities, which seems to me to be spreading too widely - my own preference would be, as I said elsewhere, probably 3 or 4 big ones, with anything else being quite small scale. |
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Post by andrew111 on Dec 2, 2017 17:48:59 GMT
Yes I has thought much of this policy excellent but I hadn't quoted it myself because there are 3 little words I personally think are wrong -"at least ten" new garden cities, which seems to me to be spreading too widely - my own preference would be, as I said elsewhere, probably 3 or 4 big ones, with anything else being quite small scale. Barnaby will be after you for that YP! Having your own policy instead of the manifesto policy? I think the devil will be in the detail of a new Garden City policy to be honest. Just as the devil is in the detail of abolition of tuition fees without establishing any new rules for university funding.. However I too do not think that opposing new housing in some places while encouraging it in general is necessarily an inconsistent policy, but in my experience it is the Tories who are most hypocritical about this... |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 18:19:12 GMT
Arbitrary numbers aren't helpful really the number of new towns need to meet demand rather than what we think sounds a nice round number
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Post by yellowperil on Dec 2, 2017 19:16:48 GMT
Arbitrary numbers aren't helpful really the number of new towns need to meet demand rather than what we think sounds a nice round number I think I agree with that, but my thinking is that to be successful they need to come quite quickly to a critical mass which suggests to me in the time frame in question a fairly small number like 3 of 4 rather than a big number like 10+, and as I suggested elsewhere not more than one per region. |
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Post by yellowperil on Dec 2, 2017 19:25:12 GMT
Barnaby will be after you for that YP! Having your own policy instead of the manifesto policy? I think the devil will be in the detail of a new Garden City policy to be honest. Just as the devil is in the detail of abolition of tuition fees without establishing any new rules for university funding.. However I too do not think that opposing new housing in some places while encouraging it in general is necessarily an inconsistent policy, but in my experience it is the Tories who are most hypocritical about this... Lib Dems in my experience have rarely seen a manifesto commitment as holy writ. These days anyway I am a party member and nothing more, holding no office in party or local government, and no longer attend conference, so I'll damn well say what I please  |
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Post by yellowperil on Dec 2, 2017 20:36:58 GMT
Not quite sure why I in particular would be after yellowperil for that. Don't think Andrew111 had you in particular in mind when he referred to Barnaby, as I don't think its part of your remit to keep Lib Dems on the straight and narrow, and given that Andrew's status is non-aligned it can't be part if his either. Must be a reference to Midsomer Murders. |
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thetop
Labour
[k4r]
Posts: 945
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Post by thetop on Dec 2, 2017 20:58:41 GMT
Not quite sure why I in particular would be after yellowperil for that. Don't think Andrew111 had you in particular in mind when he referred to Barnaby, as I don't think its part of your remit to keep Lib Dems on the straight and narrow, and given that Andrew's status is non-aligned it can't be part if his either. Must be a reference to Midsomer Murders. He's mentioned he's been canvassing for the Lib Dems etc but for whatever reason prefers to keep himself non-aligned. |
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Post by lancastrian on Dec 2, 2017 21:26:22 GMT
Yes I has thought much of this policy excellent but I hadn't quoted it myself because there are 3 little words I personally think are wrong -"at least ten" new garden cities, which seems to me to be spreading too widely - my own preference would be, as I said elsewhere, probably 3 or 4 big ones, with anything else being quite small scale. 2016-17 new build completions were just over 180,000. If you're going to build 300,000 per year, over a ten year period you'd need 12 Milton Keynes to make up the shortfall. The scale of the problem is enormous. |
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