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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Dec 3, 2017 22:16:17 GMT
The working class is meaningless? Who delivers your post, serves you in shops, drives the buses or trains you use, cuts your hair or brings you your coffee in the coffee shop? This is an excellent illustration of why I utterly reject the Liberal Democrats and refuse to "lend them my vote". Experience tells me that if you do that they will count it as a whole-hearted endorsement of what, for want of a better word, we shall call their policies. Nevertheless, congratulations to them. Unusually I am in agreement with carlton43 whose analysis of the results is actually very good here. It's noteworthy that all 4 of the constituencies where the by-elections took place are safe Conservative seats, and only one has been anywhere remotely near electing a Labour MP in most people's living memory (Gosport, in 2001). Who spends all day shovelling manure into a trailer, moving it by tractor and then digging it by hand into solid Severn valley clay in the pissing rain for £12.50 an hour? Who has to soak in the bath to get the mud off and stop his back aching at the end of the working day? Oh hang on, that'd be me. And no, it doesn't make me working class. Nor does the fact that I'm a single parent who gets Tax Credits either. Nor does the fact that I call no-one boss and fill in a tax return make me a little capitalist. Sorry @barnabymarder, you're clearly a decent bloke but I won't take a lecture on working class life from any of the Labour members on here until just one of them is delivering the post, working in a shop, driving a bus or train or working in a coffee shop. As far as I can tell about the only regular on here who could make the claim would be @boogieeck. I believe ArmchairCritic could have said so in the past and I believe cogload has been known to see the inside of a signal box; gwynthegriff seems to have been at the sharp end a bit. Spot the link - none of us are in the bloody Labour Party (and I bet one of us would say we're working class.) Congratulations, you earn about £2.50 an hour more than me. Now can we stop playing working-class hero? It's fucking tedious. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Dec 3, 2017 22:33:45 GMT
Who spends all day shovelling manure into a trailer, moving it by tractor and then digging it by hand into solid Severn valley clay in the pissing rain for £12.50 an hour? Who has to soak in the bath to get the mud off and stop his back aching at the end of the working day? Oh hang on, that'd be me. And no, it doesn't make me working class. Nor does the fact that I'm a single parent who gets Tax Credits either. Nor does the fact that I call no-one boss and fill in a tax return make me a little capitalist. Sorry @barnabymarder , you're clearly a decent bloke but I won't take a lecture on working class life from any of the Labour members on here until just one of them is delivering the post, working in a shop, driving a bus or train or working in a coffee shop. As far as I can tell about the only regular on here who could make the claim would be @boogieeck . I believe ArmchairCritic could have said so in the past and I believe cogload has been known to see the inside of a signal box; gwynthegriff seems to have been at the sharp end a bit. Spot the link - none of us are in the bloody Labour Party (and I bet one of us would say we're working class.) Congratulations, you earn about £2.50 an hour more than me. Now can we stop playing working-class hero? It's fucking tedious. What part of "no it doesn't make me working class" did you not get? Christ knows most of the words only have one syllable. The substantive part of my argument is that late C19th definitions of "working class" and the need for a party to represent it are pretty meaningless here and now. Perhaps you lot might try to address that and then we can indeed get away from tedious claims about the working class. But if people are really going to patronise me for lack of understanding of the working class I'm, not going to sit and take it while doing manual labour for a living. The only people posing about the working class here are (some of) you lot. TBF most Labour posters on here are a bit more clued up. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Dec 3, 2017 22:48:22 GMT
Congratulations, you earn about £2.50 an hour more than me. Now can we stop playing working-class hero? It's fucking tedious. What part of "no it doesn't make me working class" did you not get? Christ knows most of the words only have one syllable. The substantive part of my argument is that late C19th definitions of "working class" and the need for a party to represent it are pretty meaningless here and now. Perhaps you lot might try to address that and then we can indeed get away from tedious claims about the working class. But if people are really going to patronise me for lack of understanding of the working class I'm, not going to sit and take it while doing manual labour for a living. The only people posing about the working class here are (some of) you lot. TBF most Labour posters on here are a bit more clued up. 'Lower-income hero' doesn't have quite the same ring, but you were implying pretty strongly that Labour posters on here could not talk about the working class because we were not in working-class professions. This is bollocks, on pretty much every level. For the record, I do think tradition conceptions of the working class work relatively poorly these days, and tend to lead to a discussion that's more about class than caste. I do however think that a politics centred on income divisions and on conflicts between those in more and less privileged socio-economic groupings continues to have vitality. It just doesn't have dividing lines quite as clear cut as they used to be. |
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Sibboleth
Labour
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Post by Sibboleth on Dec 3, 2017 22:54:29 GMT
It's also the case that class - and so class politics and the relationship between class and voting habits - was rather more complex in the mid and early 20th century than tends to be lazily assumed. O/c in a postindustrial service dominated economy it's even more complex, but that doesn't mean things were simple back in the day.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Dec 3, 2017 22:59:50 GMT
What part of "no it doesn't make me working class" did you not get? Christ knows most of the words only have one syllable. The substantive part of my argument is that late C19th definitions of "working class" and the need for a party to represent it are pretty meaningless here and now. Perhaps you lot might try to address that and then we can indeed get away from tedious claims about the working class. But if people are really going to patronise me for lack of understanding of the working class I'm, not going to sit and take it while doing manual labour for a living. The only people posing about the working class here are (some of) you lot. TBF most Labour posters on here are a bit more clued up. 'Lower-income hero' doesn't have quite the same ring, but you were implying pretty strongly that Labour posters on here could not talk about the working class because we were not in working-class professions. This is bollocks, on pretty much every level. For the record, I do think tradition conceptions of the working class work relatively poorly these days, and tend to lead to a discussion that's more about class than caste. I do however think that a politics centred on income divisions and on conflicts between those in more and less privileged socio-economic groupings continues to have vitality. It just doesn't have dividing lines quite as clear cut as they used to be. Well that is a lot more like it. You are quite right that of course anyone of any persuasion can comment on any class whether or not they are a member of it. My post that you quoted was a response to a suggestion that my scepticism as to the validity of the old Trade Union/working class basis of the Labour Party showed that LDs have no empathy with the working class. Which frankly narked me given how I spend my working days. As the discussion of working class Tories elsewhere shows, no party has a monopoly of this issue. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 23:48:25 GMT
Who spends all day shovelling manure into a trailer, moving it by tractor and then digging it by hand into solid Severn valley clay in the pissing rain for £12.50 an hour? Who has to soak in the bath to get the mud off and stop his back aching at the end of the working day? Oh hang on, that'd be me. And no, it doesn't make me working class. Nor does the fact that I'm a single parent who gets Tax Credits either. Nor does the fact that I call no-one boss and fill in a tax return make me a little capitalist. Sorry @barnabymarder , you're clearly a decent bloke but I won't take a lecture on working class life from any of the Labour members on here until just one of them is delivering the post, working in a shop, driving a bus or train or working in a coffee shop. As far as I can tell about the only regular on here who could make the claim would be @boogieeck . I believe ArmchairCritic could have said so in the past and I believe cogload has been known to see the inside of a signal box; gwynthegriff seems to have been at the sharp end a bit. Spot the link - none of us are in the bloody Labour Party (and I bet one of us would say we're working class.) Congratulations, you earn about £2.50 an hour more than me. Now can we stop playing working-class hero? It's fucking tedious. But you get paid for sitting on your bum in a middle class environment. Gentile poverty. There's real working class credibility in literally shovellling shit. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Dec 4, 2017 0:20:55 GMT
Think you meant to write "genteel poverty" there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2017 0:43:07 GMT
To be fair I used to clean pots in a kitchen for a living
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Dec 4, 2017 3:22:32 GMT
Or, it must be said, to many on the right who openly ignore 'working class' areas/voters because they 'don't vote for us'. It's one of the deep connections between Liberalism and localism. If you inherently approach and deal with people as individuals rather than whatever label they're given or even give themselves then localism comes naturally as the way you operate politically mirrors that. People make up communities, not the other way round, they shape what it looks like and should have the say over what happens to it. It's a concept difficult to grasp if you adhere to economic based political ideologies but no less valid. But, crucially, I think, we don't ignore areas because they are working class/poor. As a party we have a good record of standing full slates of candidates even in the most unpromising areas, and in every working class community there are - sometimes unbelievably - people who doggedly turn out to vote for us, despite not having a cats chance in hell of their vote making a difference. We may sometimes choose not to focus too much attention on certain areas due to unrepentant, incessant Labour voting, but this is just as likely to happen in uber-wealthy bits of Islington as in Middlesbrough slums. I was surprised just how well we did locally in some very poor areas even with Cameron as leader. Bits of Great Yarmouth, Tendring etc. were far grimmer than I expected. And yet there were folks on the doorstep without an awful lot to show for their toiling who nonetheless expressed sympathy towards the Tory cause, even with a leader painted as a 'Toff' by the media at every conceivable opportunity. Strangely, though I've met a lot of self-identified working class Tory voters, I don't remember ever encountering a working class Lib Dem... Well it happens even in my own ward (two Tory councillors and me) where certain areas of the ward are completely ignored by the Conservatives because 'they won't vote for us'. It's most often the case that the 'class' or occupation excuse is used by either Labour or Conservative when it's a competitive ward or constituency. You make a really good point of not making assumptions by that is so often how it is. As for your latter point, you've clearly never been to Pompey! |
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Khunanup
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Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
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Post by Khunanup on Dec 4, 2017 3:25:21 GMT
I have to admit that my little guilty bit of virtue signalling is that I insist on keeping three months of washing dishes on my CV.  Is that wise? I nearly put 6 months pot-washing on recently but thought it made me sound a bit common so took it of. It looks like your transition to Conservatism is gathering apace...  |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Dec 4, 2017 8:52:44 GMT
I have to admit that my little guilty bit of virtue signalling is that I insist on keeping three months of washing dishes on my CV. Is that wise? I nearly put 6 months pot-washing on recently but thought it made me sound a bit common so took it of. Seriously, finsobruce is right on this. It's also not great to have a six month gap on your cv if you don't have anything else in there. When I was employing people I'd be more impressed with 6 months pot-washing than six months on benefit (not a dig at anyone on benefit, either, that's what its for, but working is better if you can get it.) If you're worried that it makes you look lacking in ambition or whatever then look at whether you can give a bit of extra information about what steps you were taking to further your long-term career at the time - maybe you were doing a bit of informal study or researching your field? |
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Dec 4, 2017 10:40:10 GMT
Without wishing to steal Andrew's Preview thunder or set a precedent in commenting each week, the four by-elections this week have some interesting characteristics. Gosport, Bridgemary North (2 member) - Labour elected in every elections from 2002 to 2016 Just on a point of fact, the Tories won here in 2008. |
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Post by middleenglander on Dec 4, 2017 10:41:37 GMT
Without wishing to steal Andrew's Preview thunder or set a precedent in commenting each week, the four by-elections this week have some interesting characteristics. Gosport, Bridgemary North (2 member) - Labour elected in every elections from 2002 to 2016 Just on a point of fact, the Tories won here in 2008. Yes, I corrected that on the summary of the November seats changing hands, |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Dec 4, 2017 21:07:22 GMT
Add it back in pronto. Proves your not proud enough to mind getting your hands dirty (and the plates clean hopefully). If it's good enough for Orwell, it's good enough for you young @benjl hmm, I would add it for a job where those skills are appropriate. But not on the standard copy. We once had a shortlisted candidate for (Council) Chief Exec who had a strange gap of six months in his cv. Turned out he'd spent it as an Eastbourne Corporation bus conductor to finance his degree course. As you might imagine, it did him no harm in my eyes.  |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Dec 4, 2017 21:14:40 GMT
; gwynthegriff seems to have been at the sharp end a bit. Spot the link - none of us are in the bloody Labour Party (and I bet one of us would say we're working class.) No sharp end for me! Socially mobile! Granted my father was born in the workhouse, left school at 13 etc etc; we lived in a council house till I was nine; but education gave me opportunities to avoid getting my hands dirty. Career was clerical - lower management - admin. Frankly, I think "working class" is an outmoded expression. P.S. I have delivered letters (eat your heart out Alan Johnson) and done farmwork. I was utterly useless at both. |
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Post by gwynthegriff on Dec 4, 2017 22:21:33 GMT
Local government has hardly any power, can't raise its own money, and is largely told what it has to provide as core responsibilities. Must have imagined our Council Tax bill ... |
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maxque
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Post by maxque on Dec 5, 2017 3:35:12 GMT
Is that wise? I nearly put 6 months pot-washing on recently but thought it made me sound a bit common so took it of. Seriously, finsobruce is right on this. It's also not great to have a six month gap on your cv if you don't have anything else in there. When I was employing people I'd be more impressed with 6 months pot-washing than six months on benefit (not a dig at anyone on benefit, either, that's what its for, but working is better if you can get it.) If you're worried that it makes you look lacking in ambition or whatever then look at whether you can give a bit of extra information about what steps you were taking to further your long-term career at the time - maybe you were doing a bit of informal study or researching your field? If an employer refuses people because there is a gap on their CV, really, it's their loss. |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Dec 11, 2017 20:57:15 GMT
Congratulations, you earn about £2.50 an hour more than me. Now can we stop playing working-class hero? It's fucking tedious. But you get paid for sitting on your bum in a middle class environment. Gentile poverty. There's real working class credibility in literally shovellling shit. 'Working class credibility' as a phrase pretty much indelibly brands you as a middle-class tosser, but even if it actually existed you couldn't pay rent with it. Not that the case stands on its own merit - I know a couple of middle-class gardeners, and my own CV includes a few months working as a care assistant, which may not involve shoveelling but sadly does include a fair bit of arse-wiping. |
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