The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Dec 31, 2017 13:31:18 GMT
Pensions are an integral part of the "welfare state" as first set up by Lloyd George over a century ago.
(and indeed by Bismarck before that)
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Merseymike
Independent
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 31, 2017 13:37:57 GMT
If we're doing away with welfare - pensioners will be hardest hit. Why thank you turkeys, let's have that Christmas. Pensions are not welfare - they have been paid for during a lifetime of working. Also simply incorrect. We dont have a social insurance system with an individual pot which has built up over years. Current taxpayers pay today's benefits including pensions |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 31, 2017 13:41:18 GMT
It's a flawed exercise...we'll never know the true number of Northern constituencies where Labour Leave outnumbered Labour Remain...somewhere between 30-80? There aren't enough Tory/UKIP etc supporters voting Leave to reach the figures recorded by Leave in many constituencies. Streets and streets of Labour supporters must have voted Leave in Halifax, Batley, Wakefield, Bradford South etc. Yes. It's not as simple as it seems. For example Sefton was a narrow Remain win. But people at the count reported that Southport was quite clearly Leave whereas Bootle a definite Remain - though that would have included a significant Labour Leave element given how monolithic Labour suppirt is here. |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
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Post by middyman on Dec 31, 2017 13:41:45 GMT
Pensions are not welfare - they have been paid for during a lifetime of working. Also simply incorrect. We dont have a social insurance system with an individual pot which has built up over years. Current taxpayers pay today's benefits including pensions Lack of hypothecation and profligacy by previous Governments. When I retired, I dealt with the N.I. office over the amount, which in my case is the standard pension plus additions for which I paid by making extra contributions e.g. SERPS. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 31, 2017 13:42:59 GMT
Also simply incorrect. We dont have a social insurance system with an individual pot which has built up over years. Current taxpayers pay today's benefits including pensions Lack of hypothecation and profligacy by previous Governments. When I retired, I dealt with the N.I. office over the amount, which in my case is the standard pension plus additions for which I paid by making extra contributions e.g. SERPS. There is tbis myth that national insurance money ever went into a specific fund. It didn't. It's tax . It goes into the single pot of taxation. |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
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Post by middyman on Dec 31, 2017 13:57:49 GMT
Lack of hypothecation and profligacy by previous Governments. When I retired, I dealt with the N.I. office over the amount, which in my case is the standard pension plus additions for which I paid by making extra contributions e.g. SERPS. There is tbis myth that national insurance money ever went into a specific fund. It didn't. It's tax . It goes into the single pot of taxation. See my previous post. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 31, 2017 14:08:33 GMT
We have never had any hypothecated taxation at all for any reason and under any government.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Dec 31, 2017 14:21:32 GMT
If we're doing away with welfare - pensioners will be hardest hit. Why thank you turkeys, let's have that Christmas. Pensions are not welfare - they have been paid for during a lifetime of working. The state pension is a welfare benefit and is funded by an income tax (that isn't called a tax). |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
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Post by middyman on Dec 31, 2017 14:24:33 GMT
We have never had any hypothecated taxation at all for any reason and under any government. I think we have ipayroadtax.com/no-such-thing-as-road-tax/bring-back-the-road-fund/N.I. was levied to pay for pensions etc.; that was its justification. It may make sense now perhaps to amalgamate it with income tax but that is how it has developed. |
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 31, 2017 14:31:42 GMT
We have never had any hypothecated taxation at all for any reason and under any government. I think we have ipayroadtax.com/no-such-thing-as-road-tax/bring-back-the-road-fund/N.I. was levied to pay for pensions etc.; that was its justification. It may make sense now perhaps to amalgamate it with income tax but that is how it has developed. But it was never used for that purpose. It's a prevailing myth that your NI money goes to a separate pot which later you draw upon to pay your pension. |
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middyman
Conservative
"The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of other people's money."
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Post by middyman on Dec 31, 2017 15:03:29 GMT
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
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Post by john07 on Dec 31, 2017 16:12:15 GMT
This thread is getting tedious. The pension system in the UK has always been based on a 'pay as you go' arrangement. So those working now pay for the pensions of the retired. The currently retired paid the pensions of the previous generation.
There was a limited lip service to receiving in relation to contributions with things like Graduated Pension and SERPs. But fundamentally NI is tax in another form.
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Post by thirdchill on Dec 31, 2017 17:14:10 GMT
But it was never used for that purpose. It's a prevailing myth that your NI money goes to a separate pot which later you draw upon to pay your pension. National Insurance is little more than an additional, more regressive version of income tax. It serves little purpose now and should be amalgamated with income tax. |
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Post by Ghyl Tarvoke on Dec 31, 2017 19:10:10 GMT
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Post by Ghyl Tarvoke on Jan 1, 2018 1:58:12 GMT
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Post by Ghyl Tarvoke on Jan 3, 2018 23:25:36 GMT
Going back to the original image at the start of thread - this is a boxplot of the Remain vote by decile. There's a lot to be said here, but can't right now (working tomorrow)  |
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Post by lancastrian on Jan 4, 2018 0:08:31 GMT
What's the outlier at the bottom of the 10th decile?
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jan 4, 2018 0:11:20 GMT
What's the outlier at the bottom of the 10th decile? Sheffield Hallam. |
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Post by lancastrian on Jan 4, 2018 0:20:31 GMT
What's the outlier at the bottom of the 10th decile? Sheffield Hallam. It's by remain vote so Hallam would be at the top wouldn't it? Rayleigh and Wickford maybe? |
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YL
Non-Aligned
Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
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Post by YL on Jan 4, 2018 7:06:34 GMT
It's by remain vote so Hallam would be at the top wouldn't it? Rayleigh and Wickford maybe? Yes. From the first post in this thread: 2. In the final decile while most seats were Remain very few were overwhelmingly so (>20 points margin) apart from the few in London there, Sheffield Hallam (the only Labour seat on the list, well was.... until, well, Jared O'Mara) and St Albans. However within that decile there is also a 68% Leave seat - Rayleigh and Wickford. There are also a few 60%+ Leave seats in the 9th Decile. Some Journalists to South Essex to discover these left behinds please. |
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